20070814

Busy Drafting

This is the Technical Board Team Meeting, started on 14 August 2007, 15H00 - 18H00.

Attendance

  • mdz
  • mjg59
  • keescook
  • Keybuk
  • calc
  • sabdfl
  • mr_pouit
  • Mithrandir
  • highvolt1ge
  • pygi
  • mvo
  • ompaul

Agenda

Minutes

  • Review StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions

    • Basic "unknown" was "who approves packages that get micro-version updates instead of minimal patches for SRU?"
    • mdz noted: "On a case-by-case basis, if the security team rates the chance of vulnerability exploitation greater than the chance of regression for a given update, it can skip SRU and go directly through the security queue".

    • mdz noted that the security team already publishes updates via https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions

    • ACTION: keescook to drop point 2, and clarify the exception as an SRU/SUP exception.

    • SUGGESTION: mdz: so I think a reasonable process for adding packages to the list is for the proposer (whomever that might be) to assess whether the package meets the criteria, and mail that to the tech board for confirmation. Approval will be via email.

    • NOTE: The approval process for the above mentioned must be well documented.

    • VOTE: keescook's proposal at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions, revision 4. Results: 3 for and 0 against.

    • ACTION: keescook to update StableReleaseUpdates accordingly.

  • Application from Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-July/000236.html

    • VOTE: Application from Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev. Results: 4 for, 0 against. Application for Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev, ACCEPTED

    • ACTION: One of the team members to update Launchpad.

  • Application from Lionel Le Folgoc for ubuntu-core-dev: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-June/000162.html

    • VOTE: Application from Lionel Le Folgoc for ubuntu-core-dev. Results: 3 for, 0 against. Application for Lionel Le Folgoc for ubuntu-core-dev, ACCEPTED

    • ACTION: sabdfl to update launchpad.

  • Compiz by default -- MatthewGarrett

    • Two major problems:
      • Anything using Xv
      • Any windowed 3D applications
      • mvo noted that windowed 3d will not be ready for gutsy

      • ACTION: mvo to start more public discussion with summary of the issues

Any Other Business

  • None reported.

IRC Logs

(03:07:21 PM) mdz_: #startmeeting
(03:07:22 PM) MootBot: Meeting started at 19:01. The chair is mdz_.
(03:07:22 PM) MootBot: Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
(03:07:35 PM) mdz_: [TOPIC] Review StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions -- KeesCook
(03:07:36 PM) MootBot: New Topic:  Review StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions -- KeesCook
(03:07:50 PM) keescook: right, the basic "unknown" was "who approves packages that get micro-version updates instead of minimal patches for SRU?"
(03:07:55 PM) mdz_: (pasting for MootBot's benefit)
(03:07:57 PM) mdz_: <mdz_> keescook: the proposal seems to more or less document current practice
(03:07:57 PM) mdz_:  the one point I'm uncertain about is the second bullet
(03:08:38 PM) keescook: the 2nd bullet is for when a micro update includes a security fix, and extracting it is hard (i.e. firefox)
(03:08:44 PM) mdz_: keescook: this point seems to be addressing a different issue than the others
(03:08:46 PM) mjg59: mdz_: Can you clarify which level of indentation you're referring to?
(03:08:51 PM) mdz_: mjg59: outermost
(03:08:51 PM) keescook: it would allow for the security team to publish a micro update via -security instead of via an SRU
(03:09:04 PM) mdz_: On a case-by-case basis, if the security team rates the chance of vulnerability exploitation greater than the chance of regression for a given update, it can skip SRU and go directly through the security queue.
(03:09:11 PM) mdz_: </quote>
(03:09:25 PM) mdz_: keescook: the security team already publishes updates via -security per default, no?
(03:09:40 PM) mdz_: there's always been a sort of implicit exception for security vis SRU
(03:09:56 PM) mdz_: [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions
(03:09:56 PM) MootBot: LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions
(03:09:59 PM) keescook: mdz_: correct, this is basically providing a process outline for what is already done
(03:10:15 PM) keescook: the "new" part is the "how do we add packages to the micro-update exception list"?
(03:10:33 PM) keescook: this grew from a desire to do mysql micro-releases in SRU
(03:10:38 PM) keescook: and php
(03:10:43 PM) keescook: (for example)
(03:10:53 PM) mdz_: keescook: ok, so we're addressing two separate exceptions: 1. security updates in general being exempt from SRU by nature, and 2. exceptions to SRU for specific packages where it would otherwise apply ?
(03:11:29 PM) keescook: 1) is already well-documented (bullet 2 is a clarification about how security and SRU processes might collide)
(03:11:31 PM) mdz_: the first being documentation of current practice, and the second a proposed change
(03:12:10 PM) keescook: 2) "we want to do micro-updates of packages, current SRU process requires a 'minimal patch': we want to do upstream versions"
(03:12:54 PM) keescook: this proposal is about SRU (the 2nd bullet just confused things by bringing up security)  The 3rd bullet was pitti and my first guess at who should own the exception list, we also considered the TB
(03:13:09 PM) mdz_: keescook: should we remove the second point then?
(03:13:49 PM) keescook: I don't might dropping it; it was clear to me, but someone at the sprint wanted it clarified, so I saw no harm in adding it.
(03:14:20 PM) mdz_: keescook: I don't see harm in clarifying that in the SRU page, if it isn't already, but it has nothing to do with the proposal regarding micro-updates as far as I know
(03:14:33 PM) mjg59: In the absence of the second point, who is responsible for handling the decision process?
(03:14:33 PM) keescook: okay, noted.
(03:14:59 PM) mdz_: SRU says: "This process is to be followed for all updates except those to fix security updates, which are only released by the Ubuntu security team. Security procedures are documented at SecurityUpdateProcedures."
(03:15:13 PM) keescook: mjg59: that's part of the decision I'm seeking.  pitti and I were proposing the security team own it, but it felt like something the TB might want to own.
(03:15:13 PM) mdz_: mjg59: the decision process is addressed in the third point
(03:15:24 PM) mdz_: "The security team will have the responsibility to maintain and review the list of packages that are exceptions to the SRU rule, as well as approve package additions."
(03:15:35 PM) mdz_: I'm not so sure that the security team is the right place to make this decision
(03:15:46 PM) mdz_: especially since security updates are specifically excluded from the policy
(03:15:55 PM) keescook: I'm happy changing it; we just wanted to have a starting point to work from. :)
(03:16:22 PM) keescook: well, note, of course, that the micro-update rule _does_ apply to security updates.  SUP requires minimal patches too.
(03:16:42 PM) keescook: this would be the documented exception to SUP as well (since we already do this for firefox, etc)
(03:17:02 PM) mdz_: keescook: ok, please drop the security exception then, since SRU already has an exception in it
(03:17:40 PM) mdz_: keescook: you can reference the same exception in SUP if you like
(03:17:41 PM) keescook: I will drop point 2, and clarify the exception as an SRU/SUP exception.
(03:17:54 PM) mdz_: ok
(03:18:32 PM) mdz_: so I think a reasonable process for adding packages to the list is for the proposer (whomever that might be) to assess whether the package meets the criteria, and mail that to the tech board for confirmation
(03:18:50 PM) mdz_: mjg59,Keybuk: ?
(03:19:17 PM) mjg59: Is the assumption that we'll approve by mail?
(03:19:23 PM) keescook: what level of +1ing will be required via email?
(03:19:32 PM) mdz_: mjg59: yes
(03:19:54 PM) mdz_: keescook: I think confirmation by any TB member is sufficient in general
(03:20:03 PM) Keybuk: that seems reasonable
(03:20:05 PM) mjg59: Ok. If we're going to this level of documentation, I'd probably prefer it if the approval process is mentioned
(03:21:00 PM) keescook: one thing that occurs to me now is do we need to change the SRU verification process at all?  with a micro-bump, there may be larger areas of testing needed.
(03:21:03 PM) mdz_: agreed, the approval process should be included
(03:22:02 PM) mdz_: keescook: the current policy basically leaves it to the discretion of the SRU team, no?
(03:22:37 PM) keescook: I guess that's true, yes.
(03:22:41 PM) mdz_: in which case, I think that's sufficient.  they can judge case-by-case what sort of testing is needed
(03:23:23 PM) mdz_: IIRC the tech board more or less blessed the existing exceptions
(03:23:27 PM) mdz_: so they can be grandfathered in
(03:23:48 PM) mdz_: any other comments or concerns about kees' proposal?
(03:24:00 PM) keescook: okay, I will mark them as such; I've adjusted the exception wiki to reflect the TB approval process.  can you ACK?
(03:24:02 PM) mdz_: keescook: if you make the edits now, we can go ahead and approve it officially
(03:24:08 PM) mjg59: Sounds good to me
(03:24:37 PM) mdz_: keescook: I'd note that the request for an exception should include an explanation of how the package meets the criteria
(03:24:51 PM) mdz_: that is, the tech board isn't expected to do the research, just verify it
(03:24:53 PM) keescook: mdz_: ah, right
(03:25:36 PM) keescook: "The request is expected to include justification against the above criteria."
(03:25:46 PM) mdz_: fine with me
(03:26:32 PM) mdz_: ok
(03:27:18 PM) keescook: okay, edits made; I've marked it "ratified", based on +1s from mdz_ and mjg59
(03:27:20 PM) mdz_: [VOTE] keescook's proposal at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions, revision 4
(03:27:20 PM) mjg59: Right, sounds fine by me
(03:27:21 PM) MootBot: Please vote on:  keescook's proposal at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions, revision 4.
(03:27:23 PM) mdz_: +1
(03:27:23 PM) MootBot: +1 received from mdz_. 1 for, 0 against. Count is now 1
(03:27:25 PM) mjg59: +1
(03:27:26 PM) MootBot: +1 received from mjg59. 2 for, 0 against. Count is now 2
(03:27:37 PM) Keybuk: +1
(03:27:38 PM) MootBot: +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. Count is now 3
(03:27:40 PM) mdz_: #endvote
(03:27:40 PM) MootBot: Final result is 3 for, 0 against. Total: 3
(03:27:46 PM) ***keescook claps
(03:28:07 PM) keescook: hadn't seen the voting features of MootBot before.  nice.  :)
(03:28:17 PM) mdz_: [AGREED] ratified  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions
(03:28:17 PM) MootBot: AGREED received:  ratified  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates/MicroReleaseExceptions
(03:28:24 PM) mdz_: [ACTION] keescook to update StableReleaseUpdates accordingly
(03:28:25 PM) MootBot: ACTION received:  keescook to update StableReleaseUpdates accordingly
(03:28:29 PM) keescook: great, thanks everyone.  :)
(03:28:45 PM) mdz_: sabdfl says he is having connectivity problems
(03:28:51 PM) mdz_: we will go ahead without him
(03:28:53 PM) mjg59: Ok.
(03:29:17 PM) mdz_: [TOPIC] application from Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-July/000236.html
(03:29:18 PM) MootBot: New Topic:  application from Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-July/000236.html
(03:29:22 PM) mdz_: calc: still here?
(03:30:01 PM) calc: mdz_: yes
(03:30:07 PM) mdz_: ok, good
(03:30:34 PM) mdz_: (reading your wiki page)
(03:30:37 PM) Keybuk: calc: you applied for MOTU only recently, correct?
(03:30:54 PM) calc: Keybuk: around June 13 iirc
(03:31:28 PM) calc: hmm June 23 actually
(03:31:31 PM) mdz_: calc: you've been a Debian developer for quite a while, but only recently got involved with Ubuntu development.  What are you finding different about it?
(03:32:56 PM) calc: mdz_: well merges aren't needed on the debian side of course, but also translations being done via launchpad, and the split of upload ability between main/universe, probably other things i am forgetting at the moment
(03:33:40 PM) calc: and the much quicker release cycle :)
(03:33:44 PM) mdz_: calc: the release cycle is a big one.  core developers are expected to "have a strong working knowledge of Ubuntu project procedures, especially those related to the release process and support commitments, and an understanding of the reasons why they exist"
(03:34:11 PM) calc: ok
(03:34:38 PM) mdz_: calc: feature freeze is this Thursday.  what will change in terms of development activity at that time?
(03:35:54 PM) calc: only bug fix uploads are allowed past that point unless an exception is requested and granted
(03:36:21 PM) calc: which i will be filing for OpenOffice since its final release is close to the release date of Gutsy overall
(03:36:35 PM) mdz_: calc: indeed.  this implicitly means it is the deadline for feature projects
(03:36:49 PM) mdz_: calc: eek.  how close?
(03:37:07 PM) ***calc checks to see if he has the exact date
(03:37:28 PM) calc: the place i am looking just mentions sept 2007
(03:37:42 PM) calc: i think another page may have more detailed date, but i don't recall the url for it
(03:38:00 PM) mdz_: calc: what does our release manager think about it?
(03:38:16 PM) calc: openoffice and ubnutu releases have generally been close together
(03:38:22 PM) calc: er ubuntu
(03:39:13 PM) calc: eg oo 2.2 mar 2007, 2.0.4 sep 2006, etc
(03:39:41 PM) calc: mdz_: i believe that he knows about the release schedule but i'll ask him about it again to make certain he is completely aware of the situation
(03:40:10 PM) mdz_: the more advance notice you can give, the better.  last-minute exceptions make for grumpy release managers
(03:40:16 PM) sabdfl: hi all sorry for the delay, network issues
(03:40:21 PM) mdz_: sabdfl: reviewing  application from Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-July/000236.html
(03:40:29 PM) mdz_: sabdfl: (calc)
(03:40:46 PM) calc: mdz_: yes, i am going to make sure not to let things run late like *cough* tribe-4 *cough* :\
(03:40:48 PM) sabdfl: no reservations on my side
(03:41:15 PM) calc: mdz_: i ran into several unforeseen snags at the last minute so i'm going to make sure to get it done in plenty of time from now on, so I won't be annoying the RM anymore
(03:41:27 PM) mdz_: calc: another defining characteristic for core developers is participation in planning feature projects.  do you have any plans in this area for gutsy+1?
(03:41:43 PM) calc: mdz_: not yet
(03:41:58 PM) mdz_: calc: do you know how the feature planning process works overall?
(03:42:17 PM) calc: mdz_: i am interested in the hardware database situation but last time i looked it appeared to be on hold
(03:42:39 PM) calc: mdz_: i have reviewed it before but I don't recall all the details of how it works
(03:43:14 PM) calc: mdz_: high level overview that i do remember is create a plan in the wiki and then present it at UDS for other people to critique
(03:43:17 PM) mdz_: calc: I'm not sure how well documented it is, to be honest
(03:43:54 PM) mdz_: calc: most ideas get refined at UDS, yes
(03:44:24 PM) mdz_: sabdfl,mjg59,Keybuk: do you have any questions about calc's application?
(03:44:43 PM) mdz_: keescook: would you like to say anything on Chris' behalf, as his sponsor?
(03:45:16 PM) keescook: yup, he's a quick learner for all the merge work we did together, and the OOo updates all went without regression, so I'm quite happy there too
(03:45:56 PM) sabdfl: none, +1
(03:45:57 PM) keescook: his pre-existing debian packaging knowledge is better than mine.  ;)
(03:46:10 PM) mjg59: Given his level of involvement in Debian and what I've seen so far, I'm pretty happy
(03:46:13 PM) mdz_: calc: are you making some progress in getting involved upstream?
(03:46:47 PM) calc: mdz_: yes, on the ooo-build side of things I have had my first set of patches committed so I can now file for direct svn access to the gnome svn repo
(03:46:58 PM) mdz_: calc: that's excellent, thanks
(03:46:59 PM) Keybuk: the short time in MOTU is a concern for me since he won't be as familar with our procedures and how they differ from what he's used to, but otherwise +1
(03:47:13 PM) mdz_: [VOTE]  application from Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev
(03:47:13 PM) MootBot: Please vote on:   application from Chris Cheney for ubuntu-core-dev.
(03:47:21 PM) calc: mdz_: on the OOo (sun) side last I checked they hadn't officially accepted my copyright waiver yet so I don't know if I can make changes there yet
(03:47:26 PM) mjg59: +1
(03:47:27 PM) MootBot: +1 received from mjg59. 1 for, 0 against. Count is now 1
(03:47:33 PM) calc: mdz_: but I am subscribed to the various lists so I keep track of things on the lists also
(03:47:39 PM) Keybuk: +1
(03:47:39 PM) MootBot: +1 received from Keybuk. 2 for, 0 against. Count is now 2
(03:47:46 PM) mdz_: +1, based on long Debian track record and recent involvement.  you seem to be getting up to speed very quickly
(03:47:54 PM) mdz_: +1
(03:47:55 PM) MootBot: +1 received from mdz_. 3 for, 0 against. Count is now 3
(03:48:06 PM) calc: Keybuk: feel free to lart me anytime I make a mistake, but I'll do my best to not screw up anything :)
(03:48:19 PM) sabdfl: +1
(03:48:19 PM) MootBot: +1 received from sabdfl. 4 for, 0 against. Count is now 4
(03:48:21 PM) mdz_: #endvote
(03:48:23 PM) MootBot: Final result is 4 for, 0 against. Total: 4
(03:48:28 PM) mdz_: calc: congratulations and thanks
(03:48:33 PM) calc: thank you all :)
(03:48:37 PM) ***keescook hugs calc
(03:48:40 PM) sabdfl: erk, MootBot, listen up in advance ;-)
(03:48:40 PM) mdz_: [ACTION] somebody to update Launchpad
(03:48:41 PM) MootBot: ACTION received:  somebody to update Launchpad
(03:48:51 PM) ***calc hugs Keybuk 
(03:48:54 PM) calc: er
(03:48:56 PM) ***calc hugs keescook 
(03:49:00 PM) mdz_: [TOPIC] application for ubuntu-core-dev from Lionel Le Folgoc: [WWW] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-June/000162.html
(03:49:00 PM) MootBot: New Topic:  application for ubuntu-core-dev from Lionel Le Folgoc: [WWW] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2007-June/000162.html
(03:49:03 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: are you here?
(03:49:18 PM) mr_pouit: mdz_: yes
(03:49:23 PM) mdz_: exellent
(03:49:51 PM) mdz_: gpocentek: are you here?  you seem to be Lionel's main sponsor
(03:50:11 PM) sabdfl: calc: are you ccheney in LP?
(03:50:16 PM) Keybuk: calc: it's ok, I don't mind unexpected hugs
(03:50:47 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: I didn't know we had French forums.  are they entirely separate from the english language forums?
(03:51:09 PM) calc: sabdfl: yes
(03:51:47 PM) sabdfl: done
(03:51:56 PM) mr_pouit: mdz_: yes, they are hosted on a server with several other european locoteams iirc
(03:52:30 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: is that out of necessity, or just because it was more convenient?
(03:53:42 PM) mr_pouit: I think it was more convenient, but the "main" admin (yann2) would give a better answer
(03:54:06 PM) mr_pouit: (because there is also a separate wiki and planet...)
(03:54:10 PM) sabdfl: mr_pouit: could you summarise your plan on the cdrecord front?
(03:55:48 PM) keescook: I have to run off, but I'd like to make a quick comment on mr_pouit's application: USN-497-1 was almost entirely his work, and even included a proposed USN description.  excellent work, imho. (https://launchpad.net/bugs/132046)
(03:55:50 PM) ubotu: Launchpad bug 132046 in xfce4-terminal "SECURITY: URL handling allows remote shell command execution" [Medium,Fix released]
(03:56:17 PM) mr_pouit: sabdfl: my plans were to promote libburnia, which is an alternative currently under development, but unfortunately it is nt mature enough yet, so for gutsy at least, I think cdrkit is still the solution
(03:56:22 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: you mention that you've been active in reviewing packages on REVU.  what kind of things do you look for when reviewing packages?
(03:56:23 PM) mdz_: keescook: thanks
(03:57:10 PM) sabdfl: are there areas other than cd burning and cubuntu that you are interested in?
(03:57:15 PM) sabdfl: erk... x
(03:57:29 PM) Mithrandir: (are non-TB people allowed to ask applicants questions?)
(03:57:34 PM) mdz_: Mithrandir: sure
(03:57:42 PM) mdz_: Mithrandir: just not vote ;-)
(03:57:47 PM) Mithrandir: mdz_: sure. :-)
(03:58:03 PM) mdz_: though MootBot doesn't enforce that at the moment
(03:58:19 PM) Mithrandir: mr_pouit: what's the relation of libburnia and libisofs/libburn?
(03:59:30 PM) mr_pouit: Mithrandir: I think there was a lib called libisofs which existed, but a fork was created, and called libburnia, but ships libburn and libisofs
(04:00:04 PM) mr_pouit: mdz_: I try to do as if I was making the package
(04:01:03 PM) Mithrandir: mr_pouit: so http://icculus.org/burn/ is superseded by http://libburnia.pykix.org/ ?
(04:01:04 PM) mr_pouit: mdz_: so copyright issues, respect of most points of the debian policy (except nmus for instance), I buid it in pbuilder, and run it then...
(04:01:39 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: are there any particular policy errors which are common in your experience?
(04:02:12 PM) mr_pouit: Mithrandir: I think that the one at icculus.org isn't very active anymore
(04:02:25 PM) mr_pouit: so yeah
(04:03:03 PM) Mithrandir: mr_pouit: ok, thanks.
(04:03:12 PM) highvolt1ge: mr_pouit: wow, it would be really cool to have libburnia in ubuntu!
(04:03:26 PM) mr_pouit: highvolt1ge: it's already in universe
(04:03:33 PM) highvolt1ge: s/ubuntu/main :)
(04:03:40 PM) mjg59: It's good to see that there's work being done in this field
(04:03:52 PM) highvolt1ge is now known as highvoltage
(04:03:55 PM) mjg59: The continued dependence on driving cdrkit is less than idea
(04:04:37 PM) pygi: hello
(04:04:41 PM) mr_pouit: pygi: :)
(04:05:11 PM) mr_pouit: (pygi is taking care of libburnia)
(04:05:29 PM) mr_pouit: mdz_: the most common are copyright issues...
(04:05:37 PM) mdz_: (delivery at the door, brb)
(04:05:59 PM) mr_pouit: (missing full licenses texts in the orig)
(04:09:34 PM) mjg59: mr_pouit: What are your plans for integrating improved CD support in main?
(04:09:35 PM) mdz_: (back)
(04:09:45 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: what about technical issues?  what kinds of technical errors have you noticed in the packages you've reviewed?
(04:09:48 PM) mjg59: As in, integration into the distribution (rather than just providing stuff)
(04:10:16 PM) sabdfl: mr_pouit: are you interested in the GUI / user experience of cd burning, or just the kernel / console aspect?
(04:11:57 PM) mr_pouit: mjg59: I use and try to take care of brasero for some time, and I think it could be the good app to improve burning experience (for gtk used at least)
(04:12:20 PM) mjg59: mr_pouit: Sounds promising
(04:12:24 PM) mr_pouit: sabdfl: more for the gui aspect with brasero at the moment
(04:13:25 PM) sabdfl: ok
(04:13:37 PM) mr_pouit: mdz_: issues with libraries (sonames for instance, files in worng packages {,-dev})
(04:13:40 PM) sabdfl: no further questions, yer-honner
(04:13:48 PM) pygi: please allow me to kick in just for a second?
(04:14:13 PM) mjg59: Sure
(04:14:48 PM) pygi: I'd just like to say that from the low-level stuff regarding cd-recording mr_pouit (and everyone else who wants it) has and will have all the support from me for as long as I'm here
(04:15:06 PM) pygi: (with no idea how long will that be anymore, but ...)
(04:15:22 PM) pygi: </done>
(04:16:20 PM) mjg59: Ok. Any more questions?
(04:16:23 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: how well does the Ubuntu release process serve Xubuntu?  are there things that you think would work better if changes were made?
(04:17:26 PM) mr_pouit: mdz_: I think that's almost ok... I only feel that xubuntu needs a bit more love.
(04:17:51 PM) mr_pouit: for instance, I don't think enough people test alpha release
(04:18:24 PM) mr_pouit: (and for xubuntu, a big problem is gnome and its dependencies...)
(04:18:40 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: how is gnome a big problem?
(04:19:42 PM) mr_pouit: xubuntu was aimed for not so fast machines, and including gnome apps would have increased memory needs
(04:20:05 PM) mr_pouit: (I am not totally convinced that's still the case)
(04:20:26 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: so the problem is what exactly?  the lack of gnome apps?
(04:21:01 PM) mr_pouit: it's sometimes hard to find gtk only apps which have similar features to gnome ones
(04:21:44 PM) mdz_: assessing memory requirements is tricky.  Ubuntu is difficult to install on some systems with 256M of memory, but many systems share 25% of that with video
(04:22:07 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: ok, so the problem isn't gnome, but a lack of alternatives to gnome :-)
(04:22:26 PM) mr_pouit: yes :)
(04:22:53 PM) mdz_: any other questions for mr_pouit?
(04:23:37 PM) mdz_: [VOTE]  Lionel Le Folgoc for ubuntu-core-dev
(04:23:37 PM) MootBot: Please vote on:   Lionel Le Folgoc for ubuntu-core-dev.
(04:24:04 PM) sabdfl: +1
(04:24:05 PM) MootBot: +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. Count is now 1
(04:24:09 PM) mjg59: +1
(04:24:09 PM) MootBot: +1 received from mjg59. 2 for, 0 against. Count is now 2
(04:24:18 PM) mdz_: +1 good support from sponsors and record of strong participation
(04:24:18 PM) MootBot: +1 received from mdz_. 3 for, 0 against. Count is now 3
(04:24:29 PM) mdz_: Keybuk: ?
(04:25:23 PM) mdz_: ok, need to move on.  don't know what happened to Keybuk
(04:25:24 PM) mdz_: #endvote
(04:25:25 PM) MootBot: Final result is 3 for, 0 against. Total: 3
(04:25:30 PM) mdz_: mr_pouit: congratulations
(04:25:44 PM) mdz_: [ACTION] sabdfl to update launchpad
(04:25:44 PM) MootBot: ACTION received:  sabdfl to update launchpad
(04:25:50 PM) mr_pouit: thank you all :)
(04:26:12 PM) mdz_: [TOPIC] Compiz by default -- MatthewGarrett
(04:26:12 PM) MootBot: New Topic:  Compiz by default -- MatthewGarrett
(04:26:19 PM) mjg59: Want me to introduce this?
(04:26:29 PM) mdz_: mjg59: I've read over your email, but yes, please
(04:26:39 PM) mjg59: Ok
(04:27:03 PM) mjg59: The summary is that compiz still has pretty much the same level of functional regression as it did at this point in the feisty release cycle
(04:27:13 PM) mjg59: The main improvement has been in its level of window management
(04:27:25 PM) sabdfl: done
(04:27:33 PM) mjg59: We're still faced with two major problems - anything using Xv and any windowed 3D applications
(04:27:34 PM) mdz_: its configuration compatibility with metacity has also improved greatly
(04:28:05 PM) sabdfl: Xv the old image display program?
(04:28:06 PM) mvo: basic Xv support is in place for video-i810 and video-ati
(04:28:16 PM) mdz_: sabdfl: no, the Xvideo extension
(04:28:18 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: Xv as in accelerated X video playback
(04:28:19 PM) mvo: nothing composited though
(04:28:22 PM) sabdfl: ok
(04:28:24 PM) sabdfl: thanks
(04:28:26 PM) mdz_: the thing which does video scaling and colorspace conversion in hardware
(04:28:32 PM) sabdfl: that's because of overlays?
(04:28:33 PM) mvo: I have a pending patch for -video-intel
(04:28:36 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: Yes
(04:28:48 PM) mdz_: Xv works fine for me, it just isn't composited
(04:29:09 PM) mjg59: Some quantity of basic functionality can be restored, which gets us to the point where video playback works providing you're not doing anything that transforms the window
(04:29:11 PM) mvo: windowed 3d will not be ready for gutsy
(04:29:14 PM) mdz_: 3D is a bit messier
(04:29:41 PM) mdz_: mvo: Xv compositing was demoed at UDS, no?
(04:30:16 PM) mvo: mdz_: I was not in charge back then I can not say for sure. we have patches for mplayer that work
(04:30:22 PM) mvo: but nothing for gstreamer
(04:30:35 PM) mvo: and its not a straightforward port
(04:31:08 PM) mdz_: the issues with Xv and windowed 3D are cosmetic and pretty easy to work around by disabling desktop effects
(04:31:10 PM) mvo: upstream thinks that the compiz video interface is not the final one so they are reluctant to add support for a moving target (from what I have heared)
(04:31:11 PM) mjg59: Right, David Reveman has implemented a means of providing accelreated playback with composited output
(04:31:28 PM) mdz_: I'm more concerned about the 3D performance issue, which is less obvious and a functional problem
(04:31:41 PM) mjg59: But it requires moderately heavy patches to the Xv application
(04:31:45 PM) mjg59: So it's not a general solution
(04:31:48 PM) mvo: indeed
(04:32:12 PM) mjg59: The 3D performance issue is due to all GL operations now having to go via the X server
(04:32:24 PM) mjg59: There's no intrinsic reason for this to cause a significant loss of performance
(04:32:28 PM) mjg59: But right now, it does
(04:32:34 PM) mjg59: And it's going to take a while for that to be rewritten
(04:32:59 PM) mdz_: with the nvidia driver, I saw 3D performance issues even full-screen
(04:33:44 PM) mjg59: I'd argue that the issues are somewhat more than cosmetic - the damage left behind by 3D applications right now is likely to obscure sections of any 3D-using application that's more ocmplicated than a single window
(04:33:56 PM) mjg59: mdz_: That shouldn't be the case - nvidia have an indirected X implementation that works properly
(04:34:56 PM) mdz_: I can have a look at it tomorrow if I know what to look for
(04:35:02 PM) mdz_: but in short, it was dog slow
(04:35:06 PM) mjg59: As mdz says, these are issues that can be worked around by disabling desktop effects
(04:35:47 PM) mjg59: But they are functional regressions, and I don't know that we've fully weighed the cost/benefit analysis
(04:36:10 PM) mjg59: (This is why RH still haven't shipped compiz by default in Fedora)
(04:36:19 PM) sabdfl: if a user turns off desktop effects, do both problems disappear?
(04:36:23 PM) mjg59: Yes
(04:36:43 PM) mjg59: The question is whether we want bling but broken or working but dull
(04:36:53 PM) sabdfl: we don't restart X, do we?
(04:36:57 PM) mjg59: No
(04:37:05 PM) mdz_: I don't see a functional problem with video
(04:37:06 PM) sabdfl: surely extensions / aiglx etc are there all the time then?
(04:37:11 PM) mdz_: which chipsets are affected by that?
(04:37:22 PM) sabdfl: can we detect when an app is using wither Xvideo or GL?
(04:37:26 PM) mjg59: mdz_: Anything other than nvidia to varying extents
(04:37:34 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: The window manager can't, no
(04:37:38 PM) mdz_: mjg59: I'm on ATI here and it works fine, just isn't composited
(04:37:49 PM) sabdfl: and pop up a warning - which takes them to the desktop effects / appearance dialog?
(04:37:54 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: Nope
(04:37:55 PM) mdz_: windowed and fullscreen
(04:38:24 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: It's not the presence of the extensions - it's whether you're rendering to an offscreen framebuffer or not
(04:38:26 PM) mvo: I pateched -video-{intel,i810} today to be at the same level as -ati
(04:38:31 PM) mvo: patched even
(04:38:41 PM) sabdfl: mjg59: can something else monitor X and tell when those subsystems are activated by an app?
(04:39:00 PM) sabdfl: ok
(04:39:03 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: In theory it's possible
(04:39:05 PM) mdz_: not really, that information is in the guts of the X server
(04:39:14 PM) mjg59: But it would involve huge hacks to the server
(04:39:19 PM) sabdfl: ok
(04:39:25 PM) sabdfl: jez-askin
(04:39:28 PM) mdz_: i.e., not 2 days before feature freeze
(04:39:59 PM) mdz_: I have different feelings about the 3 different issues mjg59 has raised
(04:40:36 PM) mdz_: I think that video, if mvo is correct and it is as functional on intel as what I see on ati and nvidia, is a non-issue
(04:40:52 PM) mdz_: it looks funny while window is being dragged, but then is perfect as soon as it is placed
(04:41:11 PM) mdz_: and full-screen works without a hitch
(04:41:31 PM) mdz_: I shouldn't say non-issue
(04:41:38 PM) mdz_: but I think the bling factor outweighs the cosmetic issue
(04:41:46 PM) mdz_: since it's cosmetic vs. cosmetic
(04:42:16 PM) mdz_: the second issue, of windowed 3D applications not being composited, seems like another example of the same
(04:42:30 PM) mjg59: mdz_: It's not purely a matter of them not being composited in that case
(04:42:36 PM) mdz_: but worse
(04:42:46 PM) mjg59: It's the fact that you get no damage signals
(04:42:57 PM) mjg59: So applications aren't redrawn until you move them
(04:43:02 PM) mdz_: when i drag the window and release it, the stuff at the old location is clobbered with a frame of glxgears
(04:43:07 PM) mjg59: Yes
(04:43:14 PM) mdz_: and that's pretty ugly
(04:43:24 PM) mjg59: It gives the impression of something that doesn't work properly
(04:43:27 PM) mdz_: so I'm on the fence about that one at the moment
(04:43:40 PM) mjg59: And I don't think our default desktop should give that impression
(04:43:56 PM) mdz_: mostly because 3D applications are a) fairly rare, and b) in a professional setting, not deployed on intel graphics
(04:44:22 PM) mdz_: nobody uses intel graphics for serious 3D work
(04:44:29 PM) mjg59: mdz_: It's not limited to Intel
(04:44:30 PM) mdz_: and that's the only place where desktop effects are enabled by default
(04:44:39 PM) mjg59: Ati will also have the issue
(04:44:40 PM) mdz_: well, and some ancient ATI like my lpatop
(04:44:41 PM) mdz_: laptop
(04:44:42 PM) mvo: it will be enalbed on -ati too
(04:44:57 PM) mjg59: mdz_: Well, ancient is unfair - anything up to a bit over a year ago
(04:45:12 PM) mdz_: oh, things must have gotten better in -ati since I was last informed
(04:45:30 PM) mjg59: At least, we do nothing to prevent it being run on r3/400
(04:45:32 PM) mdz_: so it works on r300?
(04:45:42 PM) mjg59: I hope so, otherwise a lot of people are going to be very unhappy
(04:46:01 PM) mvo: I do not have a r300 for testing, but it should work
(04:46:54 PM) mdz_: I'm even more uncertain, then
(04:47:23 PM) mjg59: The r300/r400 Radeons were common in business-class laptops for the past few years
(04:47:25 PM) mdz_: I don't know to what extent people rely on that configuration
(04:48:20 PM) mdz_: sabdfl,Keybuk: thoughts?
(04:48:33 PM) mdz_: (I sent an SMS to Keybuk, but no response.  I hope he's OK...)
(04:49:18 PM) sabdfl: mjg59: do you expect these issues to be much better in the next 4-6 months?
(04:49:27 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: In terms of video, yes
(04:49:39 PM) mjg59: Intel already have textured video support, but it only works with exa
(04:49:47 PM) mjg59: Which we can probably switch to post-gutsy
(04:50:02 PM) mjg59: 3D? Very hard to say
(04:50:19 PM) mjg59: The basic code exists, but it depends on TTM. I don't think anyone is going to put any money on when that'll land
(04:50:28 PM) mdz_: mjg59: exa post-gutsy -> even in the context of 8.04 LTS?
(04:50:29 PM) mjg59: At the moment only RH are doing any real development on it
(04:50:43 PM) mjg59: mdz_: Well, yeah, that's the obvious concern
(04:50:53 PM) sabdfl: TTM?
(04:50:56 PM) mjg59: Intel, at least, are putting most of their dev work into EXA now
(04:51:04 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: A new memory manager for 3D
(04:51:04 PM) sabdfl: EXA>
(04:51:21 PM) sabdfl: talloc based?
(04:51:39 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: A new(ish) acceleration architecture for 2D operations
(04:51:48 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: No - the main difference is that memory allocations are no longer static
(04:51:59 PM) mjg59: Textures can be moved between main memory and card memory much more easily
(04:52:01 PM) sabdfl: if we expect it to be ok for gutsy+1 LTS, then i would say let's do it, the feedback will give us more confidence for the LTS dcision
(04:52:14 PM) mjg59: I have no faith in TTM being ready within 12 months
(04:52:18 PM) sabdfl: if we expect it to be not-great for the LTS, then we should realise we are looking at a year's delay
(04:52:36 PM) mjg59: These problems are hard
(04:52:36 PM) sabdfl: ok
(04:52:45 PM) mjg59: There's a lot of real development work that needs to be done
(04:54:26 PM) mdz_: as a (subjective) data point, I haven't seen any reviews of Gutsy comment on the fact that compiz is enabled by default in these situations
(04:54:37 PM) mdz_: I do see positive press about the effects themselves though
(04:54:42 PM) mjg59: My personal opinion is that this technology is still not ready for default use
(04:55:22 PM) mjg59: Bear in mind that reviewers at this point know that they're dealing with a beta release
(04:55:37 PM) sabdfl: mjg59: are you OK with the experience on Intel, and the roadmap for Intel graphics between now and 8.04?
(04:56:02 PM) mjg59: The general community mindset often seems to be that public criticism of non-working features before final release is unfair
(04:56:26 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: I doubt the 3D issues will be solved on Intel by 8.04
(04:56:48 PM) mjg59: The code currently exists, but requires features that probably aren't going to hit the mainstream kernel by then
(04:56:56 PM) mjg59: And currently performance is in the 12fps range
(04:57:21 PM) mdz_: and while it's cranking away at 12fps, at least on nvidia, the rest of the system is unusable
(04:57:23 PM) sabdfl: but, turning off the effects solves that problem completely
(04:57:34 PM) mdz_: the X server seems bottlenecked
(04:57:36 PM) mdz_: sabdfl: correct
(04:57:46 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: Yes, but I think asking users to turn off effects in order to get 1995-level functionality is a bit unreasonable
(04:58:25 PM) mdz_: hey, we barely had glxgears in 1995
(04:58:29 PM) sabdfl: hmm... the only 3D graphics I see on my laptop are the screensavers
(04:58:32 PM) mdz_: at all
(04:58:46 PM) mjg59: mdz_: Yeah, but they at least worked properly :)
(04:58:55 PM) mdz_: probably around 12fps
(04:59:03 PM) mjg59: (Without leaving damage)
(04:59:21 PM) sabdfl: do the screensavers disable composite before they kick in?
(04:59:30 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: They're full-screen, so less of an issue
(04:59:59 PM) mdz_: there's no issue with moving the window, as they're full-screen
(05:00:04 PM) sabdfl: from my perspective, it feels like trading cosmetic issues
(05:00:29 PM) sabdfl: and being less technical, i would lean to the new-and-exciting rather than the older, more functional capability
(05:00:34 PM) mdz_: sabdfl: not in the case of the performance problem
(05:00:40 PM) mjg59: Kind of. In one case we maintain the status quo - in another we add stuff we didn't previously have, at the cost of breaking things that used to work
(05:00:55 PM) mario_ is now known as pygi
(05:01:07 PM) mdz_: there are functional regressions with 3D
(05:01:11 PM) sabdfl: the performance problem goes away, though, if you disable the effects?
(05:01:16 PM) mdz_: correct
(05:01:23 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: Yes, but how do we communicate that to users?
(05:01:36 PM) mdz_: new desktop wallpaper
(05:01:40 PM) mdz_: "if anything looks wonky, try this"
(05:01:43 PM) sabdfl: we have excellent forums :-)
(05:02:55 PM) mdz_: it's easy to write it off if the user has enabled the effects, then has a problem like this which can be solved by reverting
(05:03:10 PM) mdz_: trickier when they haven't done anything and has a problem out of the box
(05:03:14 PM) mdz_: s/has/have/
(05:03:18 PM) mjg59: mdz_: Translation nightmare
(05:03:19 PM) calc: i hear that compiz causes much higher power consumption on laptops too (not sure if this is actually true) so should it be default on laptops?
(05:03:28 PM) mdz_: mjg59: pictograms
(05:03:30 PM) ompaul: sabdfl, you are talking about people who may not know anything other than the CD that came with some windows magazine .. so you need to make it verbose - perhaps a stalling of the install that has someone say System Administration Video Troubleshooter
(05:03:59 PM) ompaul: sabdfl, s/say/Type - so they know where to find it on the menu
(05:04:02 PM) sabdfl: calc: odd, i just noticed that the laptop fan turned on as soon as i enabled effects
(05:04:41 PM) sabdfl: mdz: what, we don't have gnash desktop backgrounds working yet?
(05:04:43 PM) mdz_: mvo: would it be possible to display a notification on first login *only* in cases where compiz is running by default?
(05:04:52 PM) sabdfl: moving pictograms!
(05:05:00 PM) mvo: mdz_: that should be possible
(05:05:09 PM) calc: perhaps tie compiz into the laptop-mode stuff so it is turned off when not on AC power?
(05:05:16 PM) mjg59: calc: No.
(05:05:23 PM) mdz_: how about displaying a note to the user explaining that the wobbly effects are a technology preview, and explaining how to turn them off?
(05:05:28 PM) mjg59: "I unplug AC and all my windows rearrange themselves"
(05:05:33 PM) sabdfl: that would give a very strange user experience, calc
(05:05:41 PM) mdz_: "we believe they work well for a majority of cases, but there are known problems with X and Y"
(05:05:45 PM) calc: mjg59: hmm, yea that would suck
(05:06:25 PM) mvo: mdz_: sure, we could do set, we may do the opposite too, if we believe that desktop effects would work on the system, display a notification with a easy option to turn them on
(05:06:32 PM) mvo: s/set/that/
(05:06:35 PM) mdz_: mvo: ooohhh
(05:06:50 PM) mdz_: could it be a one-click option from the notification?
(05:07:04 PM) mvo: mdz_: yes, can add actions
(05:07:10 PM) mvo: mdz_: buttons to notifications
(05:07:12 PM) mdz_: that's an interesting idea
(05:07:16 PM) sabdfl: better for that notification to bring up the appearance dialog
(05:07:21 PM) calc: sabdfl: yes, especially since its not just a 3d on/off but completely different WM :\
(05:07:25 PM) sabdfl: so people know that's where to find it
(05:07:44 PM) sabdfl: folks, i have an early start tomorrow
(05:07:57 PM) mdz_: this is a critical issue for 7.10
(05:07:58 PM) sabdfl: mjg59: thanks very much for raising this, and the analysis
(05:08:03 PM) sabdfl: i'll abstain in a vote for now
(05:08:16 PM) mdz_: we don't need to lock ourselves in, but we need to pay attention to it, and soon
(05:08:30 PM) sabdfl: mdz, could you send me a log of remaining conversation?
(05:08:47 PM) sabdfl: i'm inclined to say "let's take a small risk on it"
(05:08:50 PM) mdz_: if you're leaving, then it's only mjg59 and me; mjg59 is against it and I'd abstain at this point
(05:08:56 PM) sabdfl: but not enough to vote
(05:09:23 PM) sabdfl: mjg59: would you be swayed by large numbers of "please do it we know it has issues but it's great"?
(05:09:26 PM) sabdfl: comments?
(05:09:37 PM) mdz_: I'd like to pursue ways to communicate better with the user about this feature
(05:09:44 PM) sabdfl: by people who don't hack on that code but who are strong ubuntu users?
(05:09:46 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: I think it depends which markets we're worried about here
(05:10:08 PM) mdz_: early adopters
(05:10:21 PM) sabdfl: this will depend on who you ask :-)
(05:10:26 PM) mdz_: and complete novices
(05:10:30 PM) ***Keybuk returns
(05:10:32 PM) sabdfl: myself, i'd say developers, early adopters, and media
(05:10:36 PM) Keybuk: (and I've just caught up on log, sorry for the dropping off)
(05:10:43 PM) sabdfl: howdy scott
(05:11:13 PM) sabdfl: i think novices are also eye  candy aware
(05:11:37 PM) ***pygi would say that developers care little about eye candy
(05:11:41 PM) sabdfl: though perhaps less tolerant of a total failure like X doesn't start, they don't mind some screen issues
(05:11:52 PM) mdz_: they are also less likely to trip on 3D use cases
(05:11:58 PM) sabdfl: all of these folks love to show their linux machine doing something that windows cannot
(05:12:05 PM) mjg59: My concern is that this sends out the message that we're more worried about bling than we are about working software
(05:12:07 PM) sabdfl: mdz_: +1
(05:12:27 PM) sabdfl: mjg59: working? will either crash?
(05:12:37 PM) mdz_: mjg59: perhaps some of us are *cough*sbdf*cough* ;-)
(05:12:40 PM) mjg59: sabdfl: 3D stuff, visual artifacts
(05:12:58 PM) mjg59: I haven't been using compiz
(05:13:05 PM) mjg59: (For this sort of reason)
(05:13:13 PM) sabdfl: sbdf?
(05:13:15 PM) Keybuk: mjg59: lies, I've seen drop-shadows on your windows at Uncle Steve's before <g>
(05:13:26 PM) mjg59: Keybuk: Yeah, that lasted about a day
(05:13:35 PM) ***sabdfl also turned it off
(05:13:49 PM) Keybuk: really?  what made you turn it off?
(05:13:52 PM) mdz_: sabdfl: ??
(05:14:04 PM) ***Keybuk considers sabdfl a core use case
(05:14:08 PM) sabdfl: oh dear
(05:14:09 PM) sabdfl: cats
(05:14:12 PM) sabdfl: pigeons
(05:14:40 PM) mjg59: Ok. I think I'll leave my argument at this:
(05:14:42 PM) sabdfl: first, i should say my compiz and beryl settings were so far from default i had weirdly wobbly windows
(05:14:46 PM) mjg59: Ubuntu has a reputation for Just Working
(05:14:54 PM) mjg59: Compiz does not Just Work
(05:15:17 PM) mdz_: sabdfl represents at once the uber-adopter who wants the latest bits at all costs, and the perfectionist intolerant of all faults :-)
(05:16:02 PM) mdz_: mjg59: it Mostly Works
(05:16:04 PM) sabdfl: ok. ok. mvo showed me a way to reset to defaults, will leave it switched on for now and reserve judgement
(05:16:30 PM) sabdfl: we do have a reputation for both "cutting edge cool" and "just works"
(05:16:41 PM) sabdfl: and that's what we're trading here
(05:16:44 PM) mvo: sabdfl: compizconfig-settings-manager has a global reset button too (since today :)
(05:17:02 PM) sabdfl: bugger. ctrl-shift-left is not working now. could that be compiz? to select word left
(05:17:08 PM) sabdfl: thanks mvo :-)
(05:17:48 PM) mdz_: sabdfl: that duality spells trouble
(05:18:03 PM) sabdfl: mdz_: also, opportunity :-)
(05:18:28 PM) sabdfl: mjg59: thanks again for raising this now, it's in the nick of time and totally appropriate for TB
(05:18:37 PM) mdz_: I think there are valid arguments both ways on this issue
(05:18:54 PM) mdz_: I don't feel comfortable taking a decision just yet
(05:19:01 PM) mdz_: I'd like to throw it open to a larger crowd
(05:19:21 PM) mdz_: at least ubuntu-devel-discussish
(05:20:05 PM) sabdfl: can we start with mjg59's TB email to u-d-d?
(05:20:42 PM) mjg59: Sure
(05:20:42 PM) mdz_: not verbatim, but with annotations from this discussion
(05:21:03 PM) mdz_: mvo: do you think you could launch that discussion?
(05:21:51 PM) mvo: mdz_: sure, I can write a mail about this tomorrow
(05:22:08 PM) mdz_: mvo: ok, I've forwarded you the original mail from mjg59 to tech-board
(05:22:23 PM) mvo: mdz_: ok, I will use that and the discussion from today
(05:22:30 PM) mdz_: [ACTION] mvo to start more public discussion with summary of the issues
(05:22:31 PM) MootBot: ACTION received:  mvo to start more public discussion with summary of the issues
(05:23:14 PM) mdz_: I think it would be wise to defer the automatix discussion to a later date
(05:23:19 PM) mjg59: Ok
(05:23:58 PM) mdz_: the short version from me is that we should continue to not ship automatix, and do an updated analysis of the use cases it tries to meet post-7.10
(05:24:19 PM) mdz_: and see if we can improve them with the existing tools
(05:24:27 PM) mdz_: but anyway
(05:24:31 PM) mdz_: #endmeeting
(05:24:32 PM) MootBot: Meeting finished at 21:18.

TechnicalBoard

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