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(04:01:45 PM) __keybuk: mjg59: I don't have the context for that mail you sent
(04:03:28 PM) mdz: __keybuk: forwarding to techboard
(04:04:01 PM) mdz: sent
(04:04:29 PM) mdz: we're up to date with MOTU applications from the MOTU council
(04:04:36 PM) mdz: and I'm not aware of any core-dev applications
(04:04:46 PM) dholbach: Hobbsee was proposed for core-dev
(04:04:51 PM) mdz: __keybuk: has anyone reminded sabdfl already?
(04:04:56 PM) mdz: dholbach: oh, did I miss an email?
(04:05:00 PM) dholbach: and was recommended by a few people
(04:05:15 PM) dholbach: mdz: the problem is that the process is not clear yet
(04:05:23 PM) mdz: hence your agenda item
(04:05:30 PM) ajmitch: LaserJock also wanted in, iirc
(04:05:31 PM) LaserJock: oh sweet, not too late
(04:05:43 PM) mdz: dholbach: I think it should be handled similarly to ubuntu-dev
(04:05:58 PM) dholbach: passing on recommendations to the MC works fine via mailing list
(04:06:16 PM) dholbach: what do you think? how many recommendations by the MC would you want for that? all 5 or a simple majority?
(04:06:23 PM) dholbach: (before we pass it on to the TB)
(04:06:35 PM) LaserJock: mdz: so would there be any IRC component? or all email?
(04:06:52 PM) mdz: a simple majority is fine, though of course we want to hear from developers outside of the council as well
(04:07:02 PM) dholbach: right
(04:07:34 PM) dholbach: I'm happy with that - I'll drop you a mail with the summary about Hobbsee and make sure the new process is in the wiki docs and announced on the list
(04:07:47 PM) dholbach: does anybody else have questions regarding the new core-dev process?
(04:07:50 PM) mdz: LaserJock: I think that in most cases we'll want to do an interview as well
(04:08:07 PM) mdz: the application should arrive via email, and we can make arrangements from there
(04:08:11 PM) ajmitch: dholbach: yes, what is it? :) are people meant to put in an application to the MC?
(04:08:12 PM) LaserJock: well, I just would like to be clear on the whole process
(04:08:20 PM) LaserJock: not just the MC part
(04:08:23 PM) mdz: I think it's more useful to pass an application via email than to add a line item to the TB agenda
(04:08:29 PM) LaserJock: ah
(04:09:12 PM) dholbach: ajmitch: I don't think it matters in which order we get those mails, as long as we have recommendations and somebody who wants to become core-dev :)
(04:09:25 PM) dholbach: ajmitch: so if it's an application or a recommendation first shouldn't matter
(04:09:39 PM) ajmitch: right, as long as it's clear *what* is needed
(04:10:15 PM) dholbach: mdz: I think I'm happy with my agenda point now.
(04:10:43 PM) mdz: what's needed is the same thing as always: testimonials, information about the candidate's activities, demonstrated knowledge and understanding of Ubuntu development in accord with UbuntuDevelopers, etc.
(04:11:17 PM) mdz: traditionally we would collect some of the information on a wiki page
(04:11:22 PM) mdz: and I think that's probably still a good idea
(04:11:37 PM) mdz: putting it someplace public makes it easy for future candidates to understand what's expected
(04:12:25 PM) mdz: so I'm thinking of a process something like this:
(04:13:23 PM) mjg59: Sorry, I'm here now
(04:13:36 PM) mdz: motu discusses their intent with the motu council, gets consensus that they are ready to apply, motu council collects relevant information and submits in a bundle to TB via a wiki page, TB review and respond, usually setting up an appointment to attend a meeting
(04:14:13 PM) mdz: (I just heard from sabdfl; he's unavailable)
(04:15:03 PM) mdz: __keybuk,mjg59: comments on that proposal?
(04:15:36 PM) __keybuk: that sounds exactly like the procedure I thought we agreed on :p
(04:16:00 PM) mjg59: Yes, I think that seems reasonable
(04:16:02 PM) mdz: __keybuk: I don't recall that we were explicit about core-dev
(04:16:09 PM) mdz: only about motu
(04:16:24 PM) __keybuk: maybe it's just sensible enough that it sounds like we ought to have agreed on it :p
(04:17:14 PM) mdz: well then, ok
(04:17:18 PM) mdz: it just needs to be documented then
(04:17:42 PM) dholbach: I'll take care of that
(04:17:43 PM) mdz: dholbach: would you update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewDeveloperProcess ?
(04:17:46 PM) mjg59: dholbach: Thanks
(04:17:50 PM) dholbach: de rien
(04:17:57 PM) mdz: it's pretty close already
(04:17:58 PM) LaserJock: I guess I'm a little unsure about the "motu council collects relevant information" part
(04:18:19 PM) mdz: the only thing we changed was the way information is passed around, and the order
(04:18:34 PM) mdz: turning up for a meeting as the first thing has always been an obstacle
(04:18:59 PM) mdz: Hobbsee, if I'm not mistaken, would normally be asleep during TB meetings
(04:19:24 PM) mdz: and we don't want to discourage people from applying because of silly things like time zones
(04:19:49 PM) mjg59: The impression I get is that the new process is working fairly well for MOTU
(04:19:49 PM) mdz: __keybuk and I independently noted that the meeting time ought to be adjusted for DST
(04:20:06 PM) mdz: mjg59: indeed, so we're following that lead in a way
(04:20:51 PM) mdz: I think it's a good idea to do more by email
(04:20:59 PM) mdz: which raises further questions about the meeting
(04:21:18 PM) mdz: we could, e.g., schedule the meeting based on who submits agenda items / applies for core-dev / etc. each time
(04:21:32 PM) mdz: to maximize attendance, at the expense of predictability
(04:21:40 PM) ajmitch: with all the TB in one TZ (I think), is that practical?
(04:21:54 PM) mjg59: ajmitch: The plan is for the TB to be extended
(04:21:55 PM) mdz: in general, any two time zones can be accomodated at once
(04:22:10 PM) ajmitch: mjg59: so I heard, eventually :)
(04:22:25 PM) mdz: so TB + applicant is a good combination
(04:22:29 PM) __keybuk: mjg59: the one nomination sabdfl has received so far happens to *also* be in the Europe/London timezone :p
(04:22:34 PM) mjg59: Ha
(04:22:44 PM) mdz: it shouldn't be necessary to have third parties turn up at the meeting, generall. the tech board can raise any questions they have for them by email
(04:22:51 PM) mjg59: We could send mdz back to the US
(04:23:00 PM) mjg59: But anyway
(04:23:08 PM) Adri2000_ is now known as Adri2000
(04:23:59 PM) mdz: so what would you like to do?  move back an hour to stay at 20h London time?
(04:24:07 PM) mdz: hold meetings only as needed?
(04:24:32 PM) mjg59: 21:00 is certainly a little too late to be convenient for me
(04:24:38 PM) mdz: regular meetings are good to keep us in contact and active
(04:24:52 PM) mjg59: I'd be concerned that holding meetings as needed would make the TB less visible
(04:25:15 PM) mdz: if we all turn up and have nothing to talk about, that's not much better :-)
(04:25:19 PM) mjg59: We don't want people who submit items to feel as if they're causing us inconvenience by forcing a meeting to be scheduled
(04:25:51 PM) mdz: good point
(04:26:05 PM) somerville32: If we don't have anything to talk about, we could just have some tea instead.
(04:26:20 PM) mjg59: As a compromise, leave meetings scheduled but cancel them unless there's something on the agenda?
(04:26:22 PM) mdz: we could hold meetings at 20h, but be open to adjusting to accomodate someone with an important cause (like joining core-dev)
(04:26:39 PM) mjg59: Yes, that seems fair
(04:26:54 PM) mdz: __keybuk: thoughts?
(04:26:57 PM) LaserJock: well, you could always send an email to -devel-discuss asking for things for the TB to talk about ;-)
(04:27:18 PM) mjg59: I think people might also prefer a more obvious mechanism for causing things to be raised
(04:27:34 PM) mdz: more obvious than sending email to technical-board?
(04:27:38 PM) __keybuk: I think that opportunistically cancelling or rescheduling the meeting would create the same effect as not scheduling in the first place
(04:27:48 PM) mjg59: I think the docs suggest just adding things to the agenda?
(04:27:56 PM) mdz: they do
(04:28:09 PM) mdz: but email works as well if not better, I think
(04:28:30 PM) mjg59: Right
(04:28:35 PM) mjg59: Then we should fix them to state that :)
(04:28:51 PM) mdz: I'll take that action item
(04:28:56 PM) mjg59: It also gives us the opportunity to ask people for more details
(04:29:06 PM) __keybuk: I also thing that the value of regular meetings of the TB is less than the value of regular meetings of the CC, since the latter is primarily community-driven wherease we're primarily resolving technical disputes (which happily come up hardly at all)
(04:30:05 PM) mjg59: I will note that we're poor at cancelling meetings even when it's fairly clear that they're not going ahead
(04:30:12 PM) mjg59: Like during UDS
(04:30:53 PM) mjg59: Right now the schedule shows us having one during Ubuntu Live
(04:31:15 PM) mdz: (TechnicalBoardAgenda updated)
(04:31:32 PM) mjg59: mdz: The ubuntu.com page wants updating as well
(04:31:48 PM) __keybuk: I think that my preference would be to request matters via e-mail
(04:32:00 PM) mjg59: Yes, I think I agree
(04:32:12 PM) __keybuk: and if the matter requires online discussion, arrange a meeting on IRC to discuss that item
(04:32:18 PM) somerville32: Isn't it entirely possible that TB members could subscribe to changes for that page?
(04:32:34 PM) __keybuk: rather than have a fixed schedule for the meetings
(04:32:39 PM) somerville32: Ah.
(04:32:42 PM) mdz: mjg59: good catch, I'll email webmaster about that
(04:32:50 PM) mjg59: somerville32: It's slightly irritating to then have to track that back to somebody's email address
(04:33:12 PM) mjg59: And relevant people can't easily be Cc:ed to begin with
(04:33:17 PM) __keybuk: I also think that we should be more diligent about announcing resolutions, at least to devel or devel-announce -- including new team memebrs
(04:33:44 PM) mdz: agreed
(04:33:48 PM) mdz: we need a secretary
(04:34:24 PM) mjg59: Any volunteers? :)
(04:34:39 PM) ***pochu poinst to Seveas :p
(04:34:40 PM) mdz: I'm sure we've resolved this at least once before
(04:34:46 PM) pochu: s/poinst/points/
(04:34:57 PM) mdz: and then fallen out of the habit of posting the outcome of meetings, after several meetings without activity
(04:34:58 PM) mjg59: Yes, I think so
(04:35:10 PM) mdz: I'll do one for this meeting
(04:35:33 PM) mjg59: Ok
(04:35:43 PM) mjg59: I think we've reached broad agreement over meeting plans
(04:35:58 PM) mdz: ok
(04:36:03 PM) mdz: any other business?
(04:36:06 PM) __keybuk: have we?
(04:36:13 PM) __keybuk: I thought we still had four options and no clear decision
(04:36:17 PM) __keybuk: 1) retain existing schedule
(04:36:17 PM) __keybuk: 2) alter meeting schedule for daylight savings
(04:36:17 PM) __keybuk: 3) 1 or 2, but reschedule or cancel meetings depending on agenda items
(04:36:17 PM) __keybuk: 4) ad-hoc schedule meetings to discuss items as and when they are proposed
(04:36:32 PM) mjg59: Ah, I thought we were leaning towards (4)
(04:37:00 PM) mjg59: As long as we're good at posting outcomes, I think we'll retain enough visibility
(04:37:34 PM) mdz: another option would be to come up with something which is useful for us to do together every week
(04:37:40 PM) mdz: s/week/two weeks/
(04:38:00 PM) Seveas: pochu, ?
(04:38:03 PM) mjg59: Paintballing
(04:38:11 PM) __keybuk: mjg59++
(04:38:18 PM) pochu: Seveas: <       mdz> we need a secretary
(04:38:25 PM) pochu: :)
(04:38:35 PM) Seveas: heh
(04:38:47 PM) pochu: You have experience, don't you? ;)
(04:38:51 PM) Seveas: a bit
(04:39:00 PM) mdz: mjg59: I was thinking something more like reviewing the work which was done on Ubuntu during the week
(04:39:07 PM) mjg59: Ha
(04:39:09 PM) mjg59: Yes, ok
(04:39:15 PM) __keybuk: we kind of already do that every week anyway, no?
(04:39:26 PM) mdz: we do, but individually
(04:39:31 PM) mdz: we don't get together and talk about it
(04:39:34 PM) mjg59: That arguably gives us an opportunity to ensure things are sane
(04:39:35 PM) mdz: and that might be healthy to do
(04:39:50 PM) __keybuk: that's an interesting point
(04:40:23 PM) mdz: if our only official meeting activity is resolving disputes, we won't have much to say
(04:40:24 PM) mjg59: I think I'd be happy with that
(04:40:34 PM) mdz: the Ubuntu developer community being such a well-oiled machine
(04:40:42 PM) __keybuk: we'd need some intelligent way to define "work done on Ubuntu during the week"
(04:40:48 PM) mdz: and then the minutes from that meeting would be a good wrap-up for the community about what's happened
(04:41:27 PM) mdz: sounds like something we should talk through by email, it was just a random idea
(04:41:40 PM) mdz: can we settle on implementing 2) immediately and discussing other options via email?
(04:41:46 PM) mjg59: Yes, ok
(04:41:49 PM) mdz: done
(04:41:51 PM) __keybuk: I can live with that :)
(04:41:51 PM) mjg59: It'll do for now
(04:42:11 PM) mjg59: Are we onto AOB?
(04:42:43 PM) mdz: yes
(04:43:09 PM) mjg59: We've received a request to take a look at Automatix - I think that's a reasonable request given the degree of interaction with the rest of the distribution
(04:43:41 PM) mjg59: I've already taken a look over the code, so I'll write up a review document and sent it to the list?
(04:43:43 PM) mdz: yes, it's due for another look
(04:43:46 PM) mdz: mjg59: oh, fantastic
(04:43:52 PM) mdz: I looked at the last version, but haven't looked at the new one
(04:44:14 PM) mjg59: Ok. I'll do that, then we can discuss it at the next meeting?
(04:44:18 PM) mdz: sure
(04:44:21 PM) __keybuk: sure
(04:44:26 PM) mjg59: It's probably worth noting it on the agenda, in case the developers want to provide any feedback
(04:45:00 PM) mdz: ok
(04:45:15 PM) mjg59: I've got nothing else - anyone else?
(04:45:16 PM) mdz: I suggested via email that in fact we have the discussion in an open forem
(04:45:20 PM) mdz: forum, even
(04:46:27 PM) mdz: ok, sounds like we're done
(04:46:30 PM) mdz: good night, all