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(04:03:13 PM) Keybuk: mdz: ping
(04:03:45 PM) mdz: Keybuk: hi
(04:04:06 PM) mdz: I don't think we have anything on the agenda
(04:04:07 PM) Keybuk: would you like to drive? :p
(04:04:22 PM) Keybuk: Nominations; but without sabdfl, I don't think there's anything we can do there?
(04:04:27 PM) mdz: sabdfl said he would be by
(04:04:49 PM) mdz: meanwhile, I posted a proposal to t-b that we change ubuntu-core-dev to a restricted team rather than a moderated team
(04:05:16 PM) Keybuk: how would people announce their intention to become core?
(04:05:19 PM) mdz: with the rationale that a great majority of the people trying to join are just having fun with launchpad rather than being serious applicants
(04:05:40 PM) mdz: all of the legitimate ones know that the tech board are the folks to talk with, and I would update the wiki docs as well
(04:06:05 PM) mdz: prospective core developers are expected to already know things like the fact that the tech board approves new core developers :-)
(04:06:19 PM) mdz: sabdfl agreed on t-b; I'm interested in any thoughts from you or mjg59
(04:06:35 PM) Keybuk: my only thought is that we'd lose the nice "Proposed Members" list, sorted by date
(04:06:46 PM) Keybuk: though otoh, it would force people to actually turn up :p
(04:07:17 PM) mdz: to be honest, I expect we'll want to start doing more of the process by email, assuming that works well for the MOTU council
(04:07:31 PM) Keybuk: *nods*
(04:07:38 PM) mdz: so there will be more communication leading up to the meeting
(04:07:38 PM) Keybuk: it worked for asac
(04:07:47 PM) mdz: and less administrative hassle
(04:08:02 PM) Keybuk: I certainly wouldn't say no :p
(04:08:09 PM) Keybuk: (to less administrivia)
(04:08:22 PM) mdz: I like the idea of actually talking live to candidates, though we would supplement it with more email communications, and have the option of bypassing the meeting for fast-tracking
(04:08:34 PM) mdz: or for other special cases where meeting attendance might be problematic
(04:09:18 PM) Keybuk: agree
(04:10:46 PM) phanatic [n=phanatic@ubuntu/member/phanatic] entered the room.
(04:11:51 PM) mark007 left the room (quit: "Leaving").
(04:12:03 PM) mdz: <sabdfl> mdz: what's the meeting schedule this eve? i will grab a quick bite then be available
(04:13:43 PM) Keybuk: "Mark, meet Google Calendar, I have a feeling you two may become good friends" <g>
(04:14:04 PM) mdz: I'll be around for a while if he turns up, but will be on the phone
so, there will be no meeting?
(04:57:16 PM) ajmitch: not if there was nothing to talk about
(04:58:54 PM) ajmitch: are they announced or decided yet?
(04:59:34 PM) tepsipakki: I meant core-dev ;)
(04:59:57 PM) ajmitch: sorry, I thought you meant tb nominations
(05:17:05 PM) sabdfl: evening all
(05:18:00 PM) sistpoty: hi sabdfl
(05:18:53 PM) juliux: hi sabdfl
(05:19:45 PM) ajmitch: hello sabdfl
(05:20:55 PM) toma: Is the TB meeting already over?
(05:21:55 PM) sabdfl: i don't think there was much on the agenda
(05:22:00 PM) sabdfl: i got here late, too
(05:23:49 PM) tepsipakki: well, I was here as a core-dev nominee, but it can wait
(05:24:15 PM) toma: i was planning on lurking, so I can wait too ;-)
(05:24:17 PM) StevenK: As was I, and I'm happy to wait, too
(05:26:24 PM) ajmitch: seems that the meeting started about 90 minutes ago
(05:26:30 PM) tepsipakki: heh
(05:26:46 PM) ajmitch: or there's just timezone confusion again :)
(05:27:04 PM) toma: yep
(05:27:23 PM) toma: we can do an alternative meeting with this small group...
(05:28:18 PM) ***beuno points everyone to the Firefox "FoxClocks" extension: https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1117/
(05:55:28 PM) sabdfl: mdz, want to deal with -core-dev candidates?
(05:56:13 PM) mdz: sabdfl: we didn't have any, nor anything else on the agenda except the ubuntu-core-dev LP change (which you and Scott ack'd, so I went ahead with it)
(05:56:44 PM) StevenK: There was tepsipakki and I.
(05:56:56 PM) StevenK: tepsipakki seems to have disappeared, though.
(05:57:37 PM) sabdfl: StevenK: LP url?
(05:58:11 PM) StevenK: launchpad.net/~stevenk
(06:01:48 PM) sabdfl: StevenK: what areas of the free software stack are you most interested in?
(06:03:06 PM) StevenK: I'm mostly a dabbler, so I'll touch anything, but I'm interesting in packaging, web frameworks and well, most things.
(06:03:13 PM) StevenK: Sorry if I'm babbling. :-)
(06:03:17 PM) sabdfl: np
(06:03:26 PM) sabdfl: i see you've touched quite a diversity of packages as part of motu
(06:03:29 PM) mdz: StevenK: I didn't see either of you here until an hour after the meeting was scheduled; was there confusion over the time?
(06:03:41 PM) sabdfl: timezones are all over the show this week
(06:03:52 PM) StevenK: mdz: No, I was trying to get here for 7am local, and didn't quite make it.
(06:04:02 PM) sabdfl: StevenK: what impressions do you have of MOTU processes?
(06:04:34 PM) sabdfl: StevenK: is there a focus for what you want to do in main?
(06:04:38 PM) StevenK: I'm quite happy with the MOTU processes. I haven't seen much of the MOTU Council of course, but the initial indications look promising.
(06:05:00 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: pong
(06:05:35 PM) StevenK: My main focus for wanting to help with main is to provide some man-power to helping out with bug fixes and (at the start of a new cycle) merges. Sponsoring stuff in that looks sane also springs to mind.
(06:06:26 PM) sabdfl: ok, how long have you been a DD?
(06:06:34 PM) StevenK: Since 2001
(06:06:41 PM) StevenK: Ummm. July or something
(06:07:02 PM) sabdfl: ok, +1 from me, i like the diversity of the things you've done in both ubuntu and debian
(06:07:51 PM) daviey: What does DD stand for?
(06:07:56 PM) StevenK: Debian Developer
(06:08:00 PM) daviey: ah
(06:08:02 PM) daviey: ty
(06:08:14 PM) StevenK: As opposed to a cup size.
(06:08:15 PM) ***StevenK ducks.
(06:08:34 PM) sabdfl: or, for that matter, a disk image copier ;-)
(06:08:34 PM) daviey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_(Unix)   -    confused me
(06:08:48 PM) sabdfl: mdz will ack or comment in due course
(06:08:49 PM) StevenK: Ahh, I keep forgetting about dd(1)
(06:09:12 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: do you have a few sentences of introduction?
(06:09:14 PM) mdz: StevenK: what do you expect to be different about your participation as a core developer rather than a motu?
(06:09:25 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: a sec
(06:10:13 PM) StevenK: mdz: Being able to help out more, without having to pay attention to where in the archive something lives. That is not to say that I'll stop paying attention to detail, though.
(06:10:33 PM) ***sistpoty cheers for StevenK, now that he can't cheer for motu applications any longer
(06:10:41 PM) sistpoty: applicants even
(06:10:45 PM) mdz: StevenK: one of the most important differences is that the impact of your work on users and other developers is much greater
(06:10:46 PM) StevenK: sistpoty: :-)
(06:10:56 PM) tepsipakki: oh, I've forgot to update my wiki
(06:11:12 PM) mdz: StevenK: and for that reason, it's important that core developers be very well informed about the policies and procedures which apply to main
(06:11:13 PM) StevenK: mdz: Yes, of course. I have always been very careful with, for example, motu-sru
(06:11:57 PM) StevenK: mdz: Certainly. At this point I wouldn't upload anything to main without talking to Mithrandir, being this close to beta.
(06:12:05 PM) mdz: StevenK: what criteria would you consider when evaluating whether a particular issue justified an SRU in main, and if you decided it was, how would you proceed?
(06:12:30 PM) StevenK: mdz: I have already filed and dealt with an SRU in main.
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(06:12:47 PM) gnomefreak left the room (quit: "Lost terminal").
(06:12:55 PM) mdz: StevenK: can you answer the question anyway?
(06:13:37 PM) StevenK: mdz: If the problem is a serious regression from a previous release, can't be worked around, and is able to patched easily, I would subscribe ubuntu-sru to the bug, and look at creating a debdiff.
(06:13:48 PM) StevenK: mdz: I was, as you can see, it took a sec to type.
(06:15:25 PM) mdz: StevenK: it's a good idea to get an ack from the SRU team before spending time creating the fix, just in case they disagree on the nature of the issue, but yes, thanks
(06:16:02 PM) ***StevenK nods.
(06:16:21 PM) mdz: StevenK: in addition to the routine work you mentioned earlier, do you have any interest in starting new feature projects?
(06:16:42 PM) StevenK: mdz: Indeed. The about-ubuntu spec in launchpad has my fingerprint all over it.
(06:16:50 PM) StevenK: Er, fingerprints
(06:17:14 PM) sabdfl: i also type with one finger, no shame there
(06:17:15 PM) StevenK: I'm not certain if mpt has thrown the spec at me yet, though.
(06:18:00 PM) ***StevenK tends to be a three finger typist.
(06:18:02 PM) mdz: StevenK: ok, thanks for your time and contributions
(06:18:05 PM) mdz: +1 from me as well
(06:19:39 PM) sabdfl: ok, i'll mail the transcript to keybuk and mjg59 and ask them to ack, first to do so can update LP directly
(06:19:56 PM) sabdfl: StevenK: they may ping you to chat on IRC, or JFDI
(06:20:03 PM) mdz: StevenK: since we're doing this outside of a scheduled meeting, I'd like to run your application by the TB mailing list briefly before a final decision
(06:20:03 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: you're up!
(06:20:04 PM) StevenK: sabdfl: Aye, so noted.
(06:20:08 PM) sabdfl: https://beta.launchpad.net/~tepsipakki/+packages
(06:20:15 PM) StevenK: mdz: Sure
(06:20:16 PM) mdz: StevenK: (since they didn't have the opportunity to speak with you)
(06:20:41 PM) tepsipakki: Hi, my name is Timo Aaltonen, and I'm the one doing X lately: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
(06:20:55 PM) mdz: sabdfl: perhaps Ubugtu should translate beta URLs into non-beta
(06:20:56 PM) tepsipakki: ..as can be seen from the packages page
(06:21:19 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: I know you've been working through a few sponsors
(06:21:20 PM) sabdfl: mdz: beta should nicely redirect non-beta users to the non-beta site shortly
(06:21:29 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: are any of them here to give feedback on your work?
(06:21:39 PM) mdz: sabdfl: oh, that's even better I guess
(06:21:42 PM) tepsipakki: mdz: and I've yet to reply to your latest post :)
(06:21:57 PM) tepsipakki: yes, seb128 and kylem seem to be here?
(06:22:06 PM) mdz: it's a bit late in the evening for seb
(06:22:20 PM) seb128: mdz: not in a GNOME 2.18 week :p
(06:22:25 PM) tepsipakki: heh
(06:22:30 PM) sabdfl: le mashine!
(06:22:30 PM) mdz: seb128: :-)
(06:22:46 PM) mdz: seb128: thanks for fixing yelp
(06:22:55 PM) seb128: mdz: np ;)
(06:23:07 PM) seb128: tepsipakki has made good work on most of the xorg merges with Debian and updates
(06:23:15 PM) mdz: my feisty installs and upgrades this week have been looking good
(06:23:15 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: i see you've touched X, what's your primary interest there?
(06:23:41 PM) seb128: some mistakes with the recent updates, not so much with the xorg 7.2 work
(06:24:01 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: for feisty; to make it work right on more hardware
(06:24:02 PM) mdz: tepsipakki took it upon himself to get X 7.2 merged into feisty
(06:24:48 PM) shawarma1 is now known as shawarma
(06:25:14 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: first motivation was to get my radeon work better, since it was mostly unusable on edgy with DRI
(06:25:20 PM) seb128: he has been organized on that and did a good job
(06:25:24 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: any other areas f the distro that you are interested in?
(06:25:32 PM) mdz: kylem: are you here?
(06:26:36 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: how long have you been a MOTU?
(06:26:57 PM) tepsipakki: mdz: only for two months
(06:27:09 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: yes, let me put them in words :)
(06:28:07 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: in general, Ubuntu should and could support more hardware that corporate customers buy
(06:28:49 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: are you involved in other free software projects than Ubuntu?
(06:28:49 PM) tepsipakki: but I know that this is mostly a kernel issue, and AIUI the backports-modules framework is going to help with that
(06:29:02 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: not really
(06:29:20 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: well, I've bugged the linux-nfs guys in the past
(06:29:28 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: what software engineering background do you have?
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(06:30:50 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: I've mostly been involved with administrative tools, so no real software projects as such
(06:31:06 PM) tepsipakki: tools that evolve over time
(06:31:15 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: I have a number of project ideas around X which I've been mulling over and discussing with folks for a while now.  mind if I ask for your input on some of them?
(06:31:22 PM) tepsipakki: sure
(06:31:27 PM) tepsipakki: I've seen some on the wiki
(06:31:39 PM) tepsipakki: and read the Debian XSF roadmap
(06:32:59 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: simple x mode selection, for example
(06:33:15 PM) mdz: currently, it's quite a bit more complex than it needs to be to override the autodetected settings for a video mode
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(06:33:22 PM) tepsipakki: yes
(06:33:38 PM) mdz: while we guess pretty well, we aren't perfect, and it's unlikely that we'll be perfect on every possible hardware combo
(06:34:08 PM) mdz: if you're familiar with the approach I've proposed, what do you think of it?
(06:34:19 PM) tepsipakki: upstream is raving about RandR-1.2, which should basically make it alot easier
(06:34:22 PM) mdz: whether you're familiar with it or not, do you have other ideas about how to accomplish the overall goal?
(06:34:26 PM) tepsipakki: do you have an URL handy?
(06:34:52 PM) mdz: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/simple-x-mode-selection
(06:34:59 PM) mdz: but I don't expect you to digest it right now during the meeting
(06:35:17 PM) tepsipakki: heh, no but I'll quickly check it out
(06:36:03 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: how long have you been in MOTU?
(06:36:36 PM) StevenK: [09:26] < mdz> tepsipakki: how long have you been a MOTU?
(06:36:36 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: two months now..
(06:36:36 PM) StevenK: [09:26] < tepsipakki> mdz: only for two months
(06:36:40 PM) StevenK: If I can help.
(06:36:52 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: is RandR 1.2 part of the 7.2 stuff in feisty, or will it arrive with the 1.3 server refresh?
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(06:37:07 PM) mdz: or not until 7.3?
(06:37:10 PM) sabdfl: given that it's only been 2 months, what's the rationale for pushing quickly into -core-dev?
(06:37:13 PM) tepsipakki: mdz: in 1.3
(06:37:25 PM) sabdfl: 7.3?
(06:37:36 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: since Mithrandir asked me to :)
(06:37:48 PM) sabdfl: Mithrandir: around?
(06:37:57 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: xorg-server-1.3, now at rc1
(06:38:00 PM) mdz: sabdfl: X 7.2 is in feisty, X 7.3 is planned for after feisty's release, but in between they're putting out a new server version (decoupled from the big X releases)
(06:38:22 PM) tepsipakki: yes, and I'm running that one on my home desktop
(06:38:34 PM) sabdfl: oh, that's going to make things a lot more confusing for us mortals
(06:38:41 PM) tepsipakki: heh
(06:38:56 PM) mdz: sabdfl: it will make it easier for us to take in newer bits
(06:39:48 PM) tepsipakki: mdz: to answer the question; yes, we will need a gui to make it easier to adjust some settings, but mostly I'd like it to be autoprobed as much as possible
(06:40:01 PM) tepsipakki: and that seems to be the upstream goal as well
(06:40:37 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: we already have a gui which is fairly nice, though the way we configure the server makes it not very useful
(06:41:37 PM) tepsipakki: the monolithic xorg.conf could be split up and put it a xorg.conf.d/ directory or similar (as proposed on the XSF roadmap), and then make it very modular and flexible for the admin
(06:41:55 PM) tepsipakki: s/and then/that would/
(06:42:32 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: the issue is that the server selects the default mode based on configured ranges, which also affect the range of available modes
(06:42:58 PM) mdz: what we want is to be able to choose a default mode which we're very confident will work, but let the user override it with a higher-spec mode if they know their hardware is capable
(06:43:15 PM) tepsipakki: crt's are a problem
(06:43:38 PM) mdz: they'll be with us for a long while yet :-)
(06:43:41 PM) tepsipakki: since the highest mode isn't always usable..
(06:43:45 PM) tepsipakki: true
(06:44:00 PM) mdz: I scandalously still use a CRT myself
(06:44:15 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: right, that's why I propose to put the choice in the hands of the user
(06:44:18 PM) tepsipakki: I tried my desktop without a conffile, and it used a resolution I didn't know it was capable of :)
(06:44:38 PM) StevenK: mdz: Ah, but what size CRT?
(06:44:41 PM) mdz: Windows uses a similar scheme, and it's simple and intuitive
(06:44:43 PM) mdz: StevenK: 19"
(06:44:56 PM) ***StevenK hugs his 19" LCD
(06:45:13 PM) StevenK: Well, it's more $WORK than mine, but oh well
(06:45:16 PM) tepsipakki: mine too, Nokia 446Pro, normally 1600x1200 but it used some 2xxx*18xx
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(06:45:46 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: another area I've thought about is bullet-proof-x, which means ensuring that the user can always get to a basic, usable desktop no matter what
(06:45:53 PM) mdz: even if they swap out their video card or monitor, e.g.
(06:46:12 PM) tepsipakki: that's where autoprobing helps
(06:46:20 PM) tepsipakki: but again, doesn't always work
(06:46:29 PM) mdz: the proposal was for a sort of "safe mode" which would use the settings most likely to work, with an absolute minimum of autodetection
(06:46:41 PM) tepsipakki: a fallback-conf
(06:46:45 PM) mdz: yes
(06:46:46 PM) ajmitch: not even vesa works on all hardware, I've heard
(06:46:53 PM) tepsipakki: ajmitch: yep
(06:46:59 PM) tepsipakki: painfully aware of that :)
(06:46:59 PM) mdz: it's true, and there's no one mode which works everywhere either
(06:47:12 PM) tepsipakki: besides, for some reason our vesa is dog-slow
(06:47:12 PM) StevenK: X linked against libaa?
(06:47:15 PM) mdz: but the current situation is rather more dire
(06:47:47 PM) mdz: changing from one perfectly supported piece of hardware to another produces a non-working system
(06:47:56 PM) mdz: which can only be repaired with cryptic CLI commands
(06:48:19 PM) tepsipakki: that's right
(06:48:42 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: I've been told by some that Fedora is now relying on the X server to do hardware probing, running without a config file.  do you know if that is true?
(06:49:23 PM) mdz: I know for a fact that there are some cases our system handles which that approach doesn't (yet?), so I'm interested to know how we should approach that decision
(06:49:32 PM) mdz: we eventually want to move toward something like that, but without regressing in cases where we currently do well
(06:49:40 PM) tepsipakki: mdz: I burned F6.91 livecd and tried it on a Thinkpad Z61p, and that did have a configfile
(06:50:10 PM) tepsipakki: they are using a rather exotic combination anyway
(06:50:13 PM) mdz: interesting
(06:50:29 PM) mdz: I'll have to play with it in vmware and see what they're up to
(06:50:34 PM) tepsipakki: xorg-server-1.2.99.901 with libx11-1.0.3 :P
(06:50:40 PM) StevenK: Fedora runs two X servers on boot from what I've seen, too. It's wacky.
(06:51:02 PM) StevenK: Their splash screen is in X, from what I've heard.
(06:51:05 PM) tepsipakki: they have some wacky patches as well, such that won't get upstream
(06:51:28 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: I'd like to give Mithrandir and others a chance to give us feedback about your work so far, especially since you've only been involved for a relatively short time. would it be OK with you if we continued this conversation by mail and got a bit more input before deciding?
(06:51:45 PM) tepsipakki: mdz: sure, no problemo
(06:51:52 PM) sabdfl: i'll include this in the mail to the rest of TB
(06:51:59 PM) sabdfl: thanks all
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(06:52:01 PM) mdz: if he encouraged you to attend the meeting, perhaps he was around earlier, but he isn't now
(06:52:08 PM) mdz: any other business for the meeting?
(06:52:30 PM) mdz: or post-meeting, as it were
(06:52:32 PM) tepsipakki: well, maybe he just didn't want me to bug him every now and then ;)
(06:52:38 PM) mdz: ok, thanks all
(06:52:42 PM) mdz: good night