Desktop_2005-12-16
05:05 seb128 where is herr holbach?
05:08 mvo seb128: I talked to him some minutes ago, he should be here any
minute
05:08 seb128 k
05:09 mvo seb128: how is your reading going? what book are you? and where :) ?
05:09 seb128 I've not read, as usual when starting IRC, got stuff to do :p
05:09 Nafallo dholbach says that he can't connect to freenode.
05:09 seb128 I was going to when I remembered the meeting was 20 min later
05:10 mvo what is the nice of j5 on irc? is it j5 :) ?
05:10 seb128 yep
=== dholbach [n=daniel@u5-32.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:11 dholbach hi
05:11 dholbach sorry, i'm late
05:11 dholbach just couldn't connect to freenode
05:11 Nafallo welcome back dholbach :-)
=== dholbach looks around him, says "home" :)
05:12 jsgotangco oh desktop meeting eh?
05:13 seb128 lol
05:13 dholbach so who's here for the desktop team meeting :)
05:13 mvo ahhhh
05:14 mvo welcome dholbach !
05:14 dholbach you were waiting for me?
05:14 dholbach i'm so touched
05:14 seb128 yep
05:14 mvo sure
=== dholbach sniffs
=== dholbach is Daniel Holbach
=== jsgotangco would love to be part of the gnome love
05:14 dholbach ok
=== dholbach looks at the Meeting Agenda
05:15 dholbach https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas
05:15 dholbach so what do we have achieved since the last time?
05:15 seb128 UDN
05:15 seb128 thanks vuntz :)
05:15 dholbach yeah, that was a blast
05:15 seb128 now we have lot of new people on the list
05:15 seb128 time to have rocking ideas on make the list active :)
05:16 dholbach we should really focus on getting our crazy ideas to the list asap
05:16 seb128 yep
05:16 dholbach but it seems to hard to convert ourselves from the irc-centric
approach we take, no? :)
05:16 dholbach mvo for example could take the discussion about dbus/notify there
=== Nafallo will have to read the minutes. girlfriend is demanding today...
=== mvo is michael vogt
=== seb128 is seb128
05:17 dholbach because that will something that will affect huge parts and if we can
discuss it and get people involved
05:18 mvo we will need to recompile a bit for both main and universe, seb128
already prepared a list for main
05:18 seb128 23 packages for main
05:18 seb128 let me run it on universe
05:18 dholbach 62+46 all in all (-1-1 and glib-1-1)
=== seb128 kicks dholbach for saying crap :p
05:19 seb128 19 for universe
05:19 seb128 23 for main
05:19 mvo seb128: do you use grep-dctrl?
05:19 seb128 grep-available in fact
05:19 seb128 with some | | to get source packages instead of binary
=== Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:20 dholbach mvo: do you think there will be lots to patch?
05:20 mvo so far everything compiled
05:20 mvo but I'm not 100% sure
05:21 dholbach cool
05:21 mvo we may run into some issues
05:21 seb128 is there a way to remove '\n' ?
05:21 mvo otoh gnome is going to depend on it for 2.14 anyway, no?
05:21 seb128 ie: for a file
05:21 seb128 1
05:21 seb128 2
05:21 seb128 to cat it | sed 's#\n##' or something
05:24 dholbach seb128: sorry, dunno
05:24 dholbach mvo: we could write a mail to u-d-a and just go with it in a big
upload over a weekend, so there's no (too big) breakage :)
05:26 seb128 yeah, tr works for that :p
"avahi banshee gnome-power-manager gnome-screensaver gnome-user-share
05:26 seb128 gpe-contacts gpsd libgalago libipoddevice liferea network-manager
power-manager thoggen totem vlc xchat-gnome xfce4-terminal xfmedia
xterminal"
05:26 seb128 for main
"bluez-pin bluez-utils dbus epiphany-browser evince evolution
05:26 seb128 gnome-applets gnome-utils gnome-vfs2 gnome-volume-manager hal ivman
k3b kdebase libgpod libnotify nautilus-cd-burner notification-daemon
pmount rhythmbox screem totem update-notifier"
05:26 Amaranth whoa
05:26 dholbach that doesn't look too bad
05:27 dholbach :)
05:27 seb128 those are the source rdepends of libdbus-1-1, 1 is universe, second
is main
05:27 Amaranth what is changing?
05:27 Amaranth ah
05:27 mvo nice!
05:29 dholbach mvo: ok, so we try the breakage first locally and then shove it to
the people?
05:29 mvo good plan I think
05:29 dholbach cool
05:30 seb128 mvo: but what happens when new dbus hit the archive?
05:30 seb128 apps are broken and need a rebuild NOW?
05:30 seb128 binary package name change?
05:30 mvo binary package name changes
05:30 mvo so when dbus hits the archive nothing happens
05:30 seb128 oh, nice
05:30 seb128 clean transition so
05:31 dholbach seb128: we do it the doko way: do a million uploads at once :)
05:31 mvo but once we start building the first apps we need to be quick :)
05:31 mvo yes
05:31 dholbach we can split up and do it over the weekend or over night :)
05:31 seb128 what happens if apps built with 2 different versions try to
communicate?
05:31 mvo of course we first need a building dbus *cough*
05:31 Nafallo today!? :-D
05:31 raphink slomo: could you advocate http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=1163
again please?
05:31 mvo shock and awe
05:31 seb128 we get 2 busses and they don't reach each other
05:31 seb128 or BUM?:)
05:32 slomo raphink: wrong channel ;P
05:32 mvo in theory it might work, but in reality -> bum
05:32 raphink oops sorry
05:32 raphink :(
05:32 raphink hehe
05:32 seb128 mvo: bum like app crashing?
05:32 dholbach seb128: isnt 'boum' the french way of crashing? ;)
05:32 seb128 or just dbus feature not working fine?
05:32 seb128 dholbach: yeah, but that's an english meeting :p
05:32 seb128 haha :)
05:32 dholbach :)
05:33 mvo I had panel freezes for examples
05:33 seb128 panel doesn't use dbus
05:33 dholbach we'll see how it works out... a warning on u-d-a should be
appropriate :)
05:33 seb128 see my list :p
05:33 mvo but some applets do
05:33 seb128 applets should not be able to take the panel down
05:33 seb128 I blame vuntz
05:33 dholbach "should" :)
05:33 seb128 vuntz|away: HERE, NOW :)
05:34 dholbach haha
05:34 seb128 mvo: anyway, 20 package is no big deal, with 2-3 people on it, it's a
matter of one hour
05:34 dholbach yeah
05:34 sivang desktop team meeting?
05:34 sivang or doc-team ?
05:34 dholbach desktop, still :)
05:34 seb128 guess?
05:35 Nafallo those packages are only main? :-)
05:35 dholbach Nafallo: universe uploads! :)
05:35 Nafallo sivang: no, the docteam has to rebuild 20 packages :-)
05:35 seb128 Nafallo: quite the same number for universe
05:35 Nafallo yay! something for me todo :-D
05:35 seb128 :)
seb128: we'll set up a wiki page, where everybody can take his share
05:36 dholbach of packages and we organize it, before we actually do it, does that
sound smart?
05:36 Nafallo dholbach: yes oh humble wikigod :-)
05:36 seb128 that sounds not required for me
05:36 dholbach no?
05:36 seb128 20 packages, I can give 7 to you, 7 to mvo and take 6
=== mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:36 dholbach yeah + universe
05:36 seb128 and we are done in one hour
05:37 seb128 the transition is small enough to be handled on IRC imho
05:37 Nafallo seb128: do you have the list of packages somewhere? :-)
05:37 dholbach *nod*
05:37 seb128 but that's because I don't like to wait for hours on wiki every time
I do an upload
05:37 seb128 if you want to wiki stuff feel free
05:37 Nafallo good point ;-)
05:37 seb128 I'll ping you on IRC to update my uploads :p
05:37 dholbach no, but just to share it before we do it :)
05:37 dholbach haha
05:37 seb128 Nafallo: I copied it like 20 lines up
05:37 dholbach apart from dbus/notify we need to discuss how to get the pile of bugs
managed - the situation is desparate since flight 2
05:38 \sh seb128: send the universe packages to ubuntu-motu ML :)
05:38 doko seb128: do these packages need changes?
05:38 seb128 hum, rather like 60 lines now :)
05:38 Amaranth 11 minutes ago
05:38 seb128 doko: that's a good point, a few probably
=== sivang apologizes *again* for missing a meeting, there seem to be an exponetionaly
growing number of them
05:38 seb128 Debian is like to have the patches ready though, sjoerd was working
on that yesterday
05:38 Nafallo oh, I've feed universe + screem to apt-get source now ;-)
05:39 seb128 GNOME is current dbus complient
05:39 sivang what packages needs work this time nbesides merger etc?
05:39 dholbach seb128: cool
05:39 seb128 mvo: have you tried to rebuild stuff with your new dbus?
05:40 mvo seb128: yes, some stuff, hal, pmount, gnome-media,
nautilus-cd-burner, evince
05:40 seb128 need patching?
05:40 mvo no, build fine so far
05:40 seb128 good
05:40 seb128 I was expecting that for GNOME
05:41 seb128 brb
05:41 dholbach cool
05:41 Nafallo ehm, I get 404 on the dbus orig.tar.gz
05:41 dholbach where?
05:41 Nafallo (apt-proxy -> archive.u.c)
=== fabbione [n=fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:41 dholbach hm, might be temporarily
05:42 dholbach but all in all it seems quite straightforward
05:43 dholbach as i said before, i'd really like to know, what you guys think about
the bug matter
05:44 dholbach i think that regular bug days are a good start, but what can we do
apart from that?
05:44 sivang dbus rebuild? seems fairly easy to do, where the package list? :)
05:44 dholbach sivang: please read the backlog, seb posted it
05:44 seb128 dholbach: bug days like every week or every 2 weeks
05:45 seb128 but we need people available/responsive the whole day
05:45 seb128 tracking what people do
05:45 sivang dholbach: ok, thanks
=== paulproteus|lapt [n=paulprot@pool-151-196-244-173.balt.east.verizon.net] has
joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:45 mvo how many people (roughly) attend to bug days?
05:45 dholbach i can't really tell
05:45 dholbach since it's quite "new"
05:45 dholbach last time there were like always 10 doing stuff actively at a time
05:45 seb128 mvo: 10-20
05:46 sivang dholbach: what's the approach to not stepping on each ones toes when
working on bugs? do you assign them to yourself for that?
05:46 seb128 sivang: read the backlog
05:46 dholbach sivang: no, we don't do that
05:46 seb128 oh, not speaking about dbus
05:46 dholbach we had categories of bugs mentioned on
http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
05:46 Nafallo dholbach: I can start dropping build-deps on libxdmcp-dev now?
05:46 seb128 there is enough bug to not step on another one when picking one
usually
=== mpt [n=mpt@200-171-140-32.dsl.telesp.net.br] has left #ubuntu-meeting
["http://mpt.net.nz/"]
05:46 dholbach Nafallo: if libx11 has built, yes
05:46 seb128 Nafallo: yeah, was a bad idea to do that
=== sivang reads
05:47 dholbach like UNCONFIRMED ones, NEEDINFO ones, ...
05:47 dholbach and people told what they were looking at
05:47 seb128 Nafallo: fix the issue instead of workaround wrongly half of the
world :)
05:47 dholbach apart from that, there were people working on MOTU bugs (in malone),
other on bugzilla, ...
05:47 Nafallo seb128: indeed :-)
05:47 dholbach i hope that our call for kubuntu folks, motu folks, other folks will
get different people involved, so we can tackle bugs equally
05:48 dholbach but surely, as a desktop team we'd love to see desktop-bugs@ fixed
asap :)
05:48 dholbach fixed/triaged
05:49 dholbach it's a bit hard to get people working on bugs, they don't seem to
have a special affiliation to it
05:49 seb128 yeah, especially distro bugs
05:49 seb128 we should make "specialized lists"
05:49 dholbach seb128: the situation on universe bugs is even worse
05:49 dholbach to be frank
05:50 seb128 like "GNOMish bugs", "KDEish bug", "installer bugs"
05:50 seb128 dholbach: I'm not quite convinced
05:50 dholbach that might make sense, do you think we should have separate days for
those?
05:50 seb128 maybe not
05:50 seb128 but have clear list during the bug day
05:50 dholbach seb128: if i look at my universe bugs mail box that's the impression
i get, they are assigned, but not triaged
05:50 seb128 so people can focus on what they are interested it
05:50 seb128 s/it/in/
05:50 dholbach yeah
05:51 dholbach that definitely sounds good
05:51 seb128 dholbach: malone generates a lot of noise
05:51 dholbach :)
05:51 dholbach yes
05:51 seb128 I read new bugs on malone quite often since there is no assignee by
default
05:51 seb128 to figure where GNOME bugs are
05:51 seb128 and most of the flood are your syncs
05:51 dholbach i always look at the unassigned list
05:52 dholbach ... first
05:52 dholbach i feel that we need a separate team, maybe we should get t-shirts out
to members of the "Ubuntu Bug Squad" :)
05:53 dholbach people in #ubuntu-bugs surely feel "lost" somehow
05:53 dholbach i saw that in the days after the bug day
05:53 mvo some sort of reward will certainly motivate
05:53 dholbach people were getting in and thought "hello, anybody here?"
05:53 seb128 I was wondering if we should split bug days
05:53 dholbach split in what way?
05:54 seb128 like have desktopish triagging on #ubuntu-desktop
05:54 dholbach mvo: we should talk to mark about that
05:54 seb128 instead of #ubuntu-bugs
05:54 sivang ok, so new dbus version?
05:54 sivang :)
05:54 dholbach but that way we will always have bugs not being touched
=== sivang read changlog in the quickest way ever
05:54 dholbach sivang: do you have a big irc lag?
05:55 dholbach not meant to be rude, but we're talking bugs atm :)
05:55 sivang dholbach: erm , I don't think so - maybe, why?
05:55 sivang eh!
05:55 sivang no , it's ok - my brain is lagging, not irc
05:55 seb128 dholbach: right, but we can still have a part of the triage on
#ubuntu-bugs
05:56 dholbach it might sound stupid, but maybe we should talk bug discussions over
there?
05:56 dholbach mvo: any idea on those rewards?
05:57 dholbach seb128: do you know of other bug teams around the open source world,
apart from gnome?
05:57 mvo t-shirts, a special thanks mail from leading comunity people (like
dholbach)
05:57 mvo that sort of thing
05:57 dholbach haha
05:57 mvo menitoning on a webpage
05:57 dholbach that sounds cool yes
05:57 seb128 dholbach: nop
05:57 mvo or a minutes from the bug-day
05:57 mvo with special mentinoing etc
=== jsgotangco starts to blog gnome desktop is awesome!
05:58 sivang but people should not do it just for getting some reward or karma, as
seb128 once noted. I think he's was right.
05:58 dholbach we should raise more awareness of those people just getting involved
05:58 dholbach like those "everybody look, seb128's first upload to the
archive"-mails :)
05:58 seb128 I didn't say that
05:59 seb128 reward/karma can motivate people for sure
05:59 sivang maybe we need to have a bugs day report, where people working were
mentioned (even if they fixed bugs, of if they did not)
05:59 seb128 but that's not a reason to make useless stuff only to get karma
05:59 dholbach sivang: sure not, but people willing to contribute usually have
contributions of good quality
05:59 sivang dholbach: agreed
05:59 sivang seb128: true
05:59 sivang but t-shirts would be nice :)
=== jsgotangco begs for one
I think that if we care not to make too much distinction between
06:00 sivang epople the take part in this day, we'll eventually get a nice steady
community of bug squad people
06:00 dholbach guys, do bug triage!
06:00 dholbach i will talk to mark for every t-shirt personally
=== jsgotangco will make sure to bring a poster of dholbach during WWE
06:00 sivang jsgotangco: WWE?
06:00 dholbach even if i have to buy them, i'll do it
06:01 jsgotangco sivang, world wrestling entertainment heh
06:01 sivang eh, :)
06:01 dholbach seb128: we should do a nice t-shirt design session and i'll sent them
out
06:01 dholbach s/sent/send
06:01 Nafallo jsgotangco: did he win against who? :-)
06:02 seb128 dholbach: I'm not the guy you want to ping about design stuff :p
06:02 dholbach so who of you will get heavily busy with us next week (21st)? and who
of you honestly noticed bug day on 21st?
06:02 dholbach seb128: thanks... we'll do it just fine :)
06:03 dholbach big silence... sure, i understand... "blah... christmas presents...
blah...", sure :)
06:04 dholbach if, so if nobody has to say anything, we should move to other topics
06:04 seb128 move
06:05 dholbach what do you want to see in the desktop team next? :-)
06:05 dholbach people seem to have high expectations in the team
06:05 dholbach (hence the big amount of subscribers on the list)
06:05 dholbach but it doesnt seem to be clear what people can do
06:05 dholbach is that observation accurate?
06:06 jsgotangco yes
06:06 seb128 use the wiki to put task
06:06 seb128 don't hesitate to use the list to raise discussion instead of IRC
06:06 seb128 to ask for new cool stuff, opinion on it, etc
06:06 seb128 maybe some weekly bug triaging stats
06:06 seb128 how many bug we got
06:07 seb128 how many we closed
06:07 dholbach maybe i should do a day with s/#ubuntu-desktop/ubuntu-desktop@
06:07 seb128 the top 5 of bug closers
06:07 seb128 daily work discussion are not suitable for a list
06:07 seb128 I think this page is nice:
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html
06:08 seb128 we should have a weekly summary for Ubuntu too
i just thought about it, but maybe if we could take more of our usual
06:08 dholbach workflow to the mailing list, people would have a "glimpse into what
happens everyday"
06:08 seb128 people like to see how things are going/moving
06:08 sivang dholbach++
06:08 dholbach who are our bugzilla experts? jdub?
06:08 sivang seb128: but also like to see them logged in a mailing list, when it's
easy to go back
06:08 seb128 dholbach: we already said that, and I tried to mail the list
06:08 sivang seb128: oh
06:08 seb128 I did for the session dialog, gconf changes, asking for the panel
launchers and stuff
06:09 seb128 dholbach: yeah, jdub I guess
06:09 dholbach yeah, maybe i didn't try hard enough
06:09 dholbach i'll try harder
06:09 dholbach new pages on the wiki, new things we're planning "at some stage", ...
06:10 sivang dholbach: make sure you send it to the list as well, and try to
create discussion there
06:10 dholbach sivang: i was talking about the list
06:10 sivang ah ok
06:10 dholbach that sounds sound
06:10 dholbach mvo: you mail to the list first... dbus / notify stuff! YAY :)
06:10 sivang dholbach: you said "wiki pages.." , that's why I Was wondering.
06:11 dholbach it was in context to what seb said before
06:12 dholbach seb128: you think jdub will make such a weekly-bug-summary happen?
06:12 seb128 no
06:12 dholbach *nod*
=== jsgotangco starts journey to neverneverland
06:12 mvo dholbach: I first need to make it build again
06:12 seb128 but it's easy to have some standard queries to get stats and to
include that to a weekly mail
06:12 seb128 like UDN
06:12 dholbach mvo: ok
06:12 dholbach seb128: i'll look into it
06:13 dholbach and set a big reminder every week :)
06:13 seb128 dholbach: ask vuntz about it, he already did some stat on
bugzilla.ubuntu like that
06:13 dholbach cool
=== dholbach hugs vuntz in absentia
06:13 dholbach are there some other points somebody would like to raise?
06:14 dholbach ok
06:14 dholbach i think for a rather ad-hoc meeting this went quite well
06:14 dholbach and it makes me happy to see, that there's always enough to discuss
in ubuntu-dektop :)
06:14 dholbach if nobody steps up to it, i'll write the minutes
06:15 jsgotangco :D
06:15 dholbach and send them to ubuntu-desktop@ :)
06:15 sivang dholbach: also, make sure you send the stuff about what seb talked in
the backlog :)
=== sivang seems to have trouble parsing the backlog correctly.
06:15 dholbach hey vuntz
06:15 vuntz hey
06:15 vuntz :-)
06:15 dholbach vuntz: any points you'd like to raise for the desktop meeting
06:15 dholbach ?
06:16 Riddell I have a brief question
06:16 dholbach Riddell: fire away
06:16 Riddell what's the status of gstreamer 0.10 support in apps?
06:16 dholbach seb128: :-)
06:17 vuntz dholbach: no special points
06:17 dholbach vuntz: unspecial ones?
06:17 vuntz err. don't think so :-)
06:17 seb128 Riddell: for GNOME most of them are ported
06:17 vuntz ah
06:18 vuntz don't forget to send new stuff on the list or to me so that it can be
in UDN
06:18 seb128 Riddell: we will ship dapper with gst010 no gst08, is that an issue
for KDE?
06:18 vuntz seb128: we could ship both if necessary
vuntz: what do you think about doing weekly bug stats (how many new
06:18 seb128 bugs, closed, forwarded, top 5 bug closers, etc) (like
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/reports/weekly-bug-summary.html)?
06:18 vuntz seb128: good idea
06:18 seb128 vuntz: no we can't
06:19 vuntz I wanted to add a section like this in UDN, btw
06:19 vuntz seb128: why can't we?
06:19 Riddell seb128: amarok will probably be ported to gstreamer 0.10 soon, but
there's no plans for kaffeine to be currently
06:19 seb128 vuntz: pitti will track me down :p
06:19 dholbach vuntz: great!
06:19 seb128 vuntz: anti-duplication front :)
06:19 vuntz seb128: if KDE needs it, we can
06:19 vuntz it doesn't mean GNOME will use it :-)
06:19 seb128 vuntz: right, but better to not
06:20 dholbach there's a bit of time until release :)
06:20 Riddell yeah, I just need to persuade them that they'll look old-fashioned if
they still use gstreamer0.8
06:20 seb128 vuntz: depending on what you mean "ship", we will not on the CD for
sure
06:20 vuntz seb128: not the Ubuntu CD, but if KDE needs it, it can be on the
Kubuntu one. Can't it?
06:20 dholbach Riddell: haha, that's the best point you can make, for sue :)
06:20 vuntz but I agree it's better to have only 0.10
06:20 seb128 vuntz: yeah, no issue for that, it just has to be in main
06:21 seb128 but pitti would be happy if we can move 0.8 to universe
06:21 seb128 because main means we will have to support it for 3 years
06:21 vuntz and everyone would be happy. Not just pitti :-)
06:21 seb128 and upstream already stopped supporting it
06:21 seb128 so that's like maintaining it for 3.5 years over upstream
06:22 dholbach ouch :)
06:23 dholbach if that gives answers to the question, we close the meeting, no? :)
06:23 dholbach ok, meeting closed
06:24 dholbach have a nice dayMeetingLogs/Desktop_2005-12-16 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:16:41 by localhost)