Accessibility_2005-11-23
Summary
Discussion about AccessibilityTeamGoals
Log
03:30 dholbach did everybody have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamGoals ?
03:31 TheMuso Yes.
03:31 dholbach if you want to discuss something specifically, i think now it's time to add it :)
=== TheMuso brings it up in another console for reference.
03:31 hno73 we can also do introductions
=== hno73 is Henrik Omma
03:31 TheMuso I have added something in comments :)
03:31 dholbach hno73: good idea
=== dholbach is Daniel Holbach
03:32 hno73 ah, yes also see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTeamGoals/Talk
=== TheMuso is Luke Yelavich.
=== mhz is MauricioHernandezZ.
03:32 hno73 Perhaps we can add the points from today to that talk page
=== jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco
=== kjcole is Kevin Cole
=== ogra is Oliver Grawert
03:33 dholbach what do you think about, everybody stating his interest in the team? or a brief idea, he'd like to accomplish in it? or do you think we should take the goals page and discuss it from top to bottom?
03:34 kjcole dholbach, let's see what we all bring to the table here.
03:35 dholbach ok, who wants to start?
03:35 jsgotangco well i started blogging a lot about a11y generally
03:35 jsgotangco pushing in planet as well
=== dholbach will take notes
=== amu [i=amu@debian/developer/amu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:36 jsgotangco the HandsFreeEmail exercise wsa really good
03:36 ogra i'm here because a11y might be intresting for inclusion in edubuntu, to find out which requirements for our specific apps like ltsp are needed etc ...
03:36 dholbach yeah, that was a brilliant idea
=== jsgotangco did some cheating though
03:36 TheMuso As some of you probably know, I am the one responsible for the releases of the Hoary Live CD derivatives earlier this year. I have also started working on such a derivative based on Breezy, and in order to add extra features such as spoken feedback for language and keyboard selection, I have actually had to learn the architecture of the D-I system.
03:37 TheMuso So I am willing to help with CDs, screen reader implementation, at the very least.
03:37 dholbach TheMuso: do you have a webpage or something, where i could read up on your efforts?
03:38 TheMuso https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibleHoaryLiveCDDerivative
=== TheMuso hasn't touched it since the last release earlier this year.
03:38 dholbach thanks
03:38 mhz I have great interests on any "bringing access of knowledge and IT to people" ideas and biz. I am totaly new to these a11y concepts but I do think it is fair from us we take care of such matters, so count on me.
03:38 jsgotangco i haven't tried that but i guess it has the AT tools by default?
03:38 kjcole I'm here because I'm trying to spread open-source in a hostile environment (hostile to open source), and the defense given is always "Deaf folks need special educational programs"
=== jsgotangco issue really is that the common AT tools in gnome are not in the cd
03:39 hno73 I have mobility impairment wehich has led me to be interested in this. I've been asked to look at a11y more generally, but I still need to catch up on VI stuff
03:39 TheMuso jsgotangco: Yes, but they need to be better integrated anyway.
03:39 jsgotangco OOo for example
03:39 hno73 I also manage several websites, so I'm trying to make those more accessible now
03:40 TheMuso jsgotangco: OOo is receiving a bit of work to work with atk from some Novell guys.
03:40 jsgotangco ahh
03:40 TheMuso But far from usable. It does work with the java access bridge.
03:40 mhz TheMuso: but didnt novel fired many guys?
03:40 jsgotangco hno73: i need to ask you something later after this meeting
03:41 TheMuso mhz: I think so, but they are going with GTK, and I have a feeling accessibility may have been one reason why.
03:41 kjcole (FYI I'm at a university for deaf and hard-of-hearing. The campus also houses a primary and secondary school for deaf students.)
03:41 mhz kjcole: please wiki such info ;) so we all and others can notice
03:42 dholbach I work on GNOME for Ubuntu together with Sbastien, and I noticed in bug reports, that a lot of stuff doesn't work properly and is not, what people expect. I feel that many software is out there and was not considered for Ubuntu yet, so I'd try to get it in as soon as possible and we should do all we can to integrate this software to make Ubuntu as usable as possible.
03:42 kjcole mhz, I put up the SpecialNeeds page and linked it to the AccessibilityTeam last week.
03:43 TheMuso dholbach: Agreed.
03:43 dholbach However, I'm not very experienced with a11y technologies. I hope we can form goals, we can work on and get new people involved into this.
03:43 mhz kjcole: oh, yes, sorry
=== TheMuso has been working with a11y on Linux for at least 2 and a half years.
=== jsgotangco just started doing research
03:43 hno73 I have some contacts with an AT-IT charity, AbilityNet, that may be able to provide some testing for us
03:43 TheMuso BTW guys. There is now an accessibility team in Launchpad, thanks to hno73.
03:44 dholbach oh cool
03:44 mhz thx hno73
03:44 dholbach TheMuso: you have the URL to the team?
03:44 mhz hno73: :D http://www.omma.org.uk/mirror/
03:44 jsgotangco join it, its an open team at th emoment
03:44 TheMuso dholbach: Give me a minute.
03:45 hno73 Should we also have some structure time-wise, like bi-weekly IRC meeting? To make sure we keep things turning over
03:45 dholbach as a first target, i'll try to get us an accessibility mailing list, so we can assign bugs to that list and we can discuss everything on there, to detach the team a bit from IRC :)
03:45 hno73 uh, looks like I've broken that link ... ops
03:45 jsgotangco well we can start with the BOFs that weren't tackled during UBZ
03:46 TheMuso https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility
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03:46 TheMuso jsgotangco: A very good start.
03:46 hno73 jsgotangco: ++
03:46 mhz hno73: i think every 2 weeks is good
03:46 dholbach yeah
03:46 TheMuso 2 weeks fine here.
03:47 kjcole Joined on launchpad.
=== mhz joined too
03:48 jsgotangco can we add those bofs/specs in https://launchpad.net/people/accessibility/+specs
03:48 jsgotangco ?
03:48 TheMuso I think it is a good idea.
03:48 hno73 So, from a technical perspective, which of the goals on the wiki are low anging fruit?
03:48 mhz hno73: should yup
03:48 mhz sorry
03:48 mhz jsgotangco: yup
03:48 hno73 dholbach, ogra ^
03:49 hno73 hanging
03:49 ogra good question
03:49 dholbach yeah, it is
03:49 ogra what is already there ?
03:49 dholbach i think we, as a team, should start on testing those features listed on the goals page
03:49 jsgotangco there's no AT solution for gdm for example
03:50 ogra i mean, stuff thats already packaged and working that we only need to arrange
03:50 dholbach and identify how they are wrong
03:50 jsgotangco ahhh
03:50 TheMuso But how can one define working with stuff like a11y? Different users have different levels of use from a program, for example gnopernicus.
=== JaneW [n=JaneW@wbs-146-151-44.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:52 ogra TheMuso, i think we need to spot the common bits first.... thats the low hanging fruit ...
03:52 TheMuso Right.
03:52 jsgotangco and how can we actually test them
03:52 jsgotangco a methodology perhaps?
03:52 jsgotangco or cheat sheet
03:52 dholbach i think we should start dividing the wiki page into different pages, like AccessibilityTeam/VisualImpairement
03:53 dholbach and then start listing problems we encounter on testing ubuntu from that perspective
03:53 TheMuso dholbach: Good idea.
03:53 hno73 I'd like to see us identify some fairly easy items in this cycle, so we can actually tick some bioxes and build up a teams on the basis of those achievents
=== hunger [n=hunger@p54A61BC4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
03:53 dholbach then we could have subpages for: spotted problems (list the upstream bugs, we file on those products), new software we want to have, test plans, ...
03:54 kjcole We need to recruit: Nothing like folks with a vested interest doing the testing -- in an organized fashion. I keep trying to convince a blind friend to give Linux a go, but so far, no luck. (Unfortunately, he's moved out of the area, so I can't give the "personal" touch to helping him get started.)
03:54 dholbach hno73: absolutely, once we have a plan with goals, we should prioritize them
03:54 ogra dholbach, having a metapackage and different debconf setups for these categories would be cool i think
03:55 mhz hno73: what if we could design a survey or poll? users could answer and hence we'll know needs in priority
03:55 hno73 kjcole: right. I think the best way to recruit is to show that we have gotten one or two things in place
03:55 dholbach ogra: that's another question, how/when to enable those features
03:55 TheMuso mhz: THe problem is who will do the survey?
03:55 TheMuso As hno73 said, it might be better once we have a few good things in place and working.
03:56 mhz TheMuso: i can contact people here in chile who can help us
03:56 dholbach there are different sets of goals, i feel: agreeing on goals, doing testing, getting people involved/testing ubuntu
03:56 mhz i translate it
03:56 TheMuso I am in touch with a large blind user community which could be handy.
03:56 TheMuso Which is worldwide.
03:56 dholbach and we should discuss them separately
03:56 kjcole Personal experience is there's a lot of resentment when a group of hearing people set out to create what's "best" for deaf folks, by trying to imagine themselves as deaf.
03:56 hno73 TheMuso: who use Linux?
03:56 dholbach (and handle them separately on the wiki)
03:56 dholbach does that make sense?
03:56 TheMuso hno73: Not many at all.
03:56 TheMuso And they use the console, like me.
03:57 mhz good, IMHO, for us more IT friends it may be diff goals or priorities than other end users
03:57 hno73 TheMuso: could we send out dapper test discs to them?
03:57 TheMuso For those who don't know, I have a vision impairement.
03:57 kjcole TheMuso, that sounds great!
03:57 hno73 one problem is that testing often gets done after vthe release
03:57 mhz TheMuso: good point
03:58 TheMuso hno73: They are all contctable via mailing lists, but have chosen there distro of choice. Still worth a try if we point them to where we can download it.
=== zakame [n=zak@ubuntu/member/zakame] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
03:58 hno73 TheMuso: I guess you would say bash is better than the DOS console an day?
=== zakame [n=zak@ubuntu/member/zakame] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
03:58 TheMuso Yes.
03:58 TheMuso One thing that would wu them for sure is having spoken installation.
03:58 TheMuso i.e. Ubuntu Express/Standard D-I.
03:59 kjcole dholbach, agreed (re: separate handling of separate issues).
03:59 jsgotangco that looks hard
03:59 mhz dholbach: yup, separate
03:59 TheMuso Spoken installation with software speech. It can be done with hardware already.
03:59 TheMuso Not implemented in Ubuntu yet, but has been done in Debian.
03:59 dholbach hm, i seem to have quite some lag :)
03:59 TheMuso Hardware speech this is.
04:00 mhz TheMuso: maybe we could talk to CuaimaProject guys. They are developing a MetaInstaller made in Python and some java (clients side)
04:00 jsgotangco how about thte hardware interfaces themselves? do we have good support?
04:00 TheMuso jsgotangco: For most of them, yes.
04:00 TheMuso But the screen reader as well as drivers is kernel code.
04:00 mhz TheMuso: has Python some work on speeching?
04:00 jsgotangco ahhh
04:00 ogra mhz, the preferred way would be to use and improve d-i
04:00 TheMuso mhz: GTK does via atk.
04:01 mhz oh
04:01 ogra or ubuntu express ....
04:01 ogra mhz, but indeed we can look at the code and grab ideas :)
04:01 TheMuso ogra: Am I right in guessing that even with Ubuntu Express, D-I will still be used for initial keyboard/language selection?
04:01 dholbach what do you think, should we do until the next meeting? (in two weeks time) how do we organize ourselves?
04:01 hno73 I feel we should keep a close eye on the Ubuntu Express development and make sure they dont forget AT
=== kjcole scratches head... D-I?
04:02 dholbach kjcole: debian-installer
04:02 TheMuso kjcole: Debian installer.
04:02 hno73 since they are buyilding a new tool after all
04:02 ogra TheMuso, express will run from the liveCD which you still have to set up on boot, yes
=== mhz is very excited with PythonEduLab. If python have some tools for this a11y goals, maybe we may package content, too
04:02 TheMuso Well we need that to be spoken, with either hardware or software speech.
04:02 kjcole dholbach, TheMusu, thanks.
04:02 kjcole s/u/o/
04:03 TheMuso ogra: Is there also the possibility that the standard d-i install may be available in cases where X cannot be configured correctly for the display hardware, or the user explicitly requests it?
04:03 ogra not on the liveCD as far as i know ...
04:04 TheMuso Ok.
04:04 kjcole For the next meeting, I'm going to try to bring in one hard-of-hearing student here, who's become a Linux fan and may have an insiders perspective. (He's not at all technical. Just a basic user, who's found a whole new toybox to play in.)
=== slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:04 ogra there will still be a d-i based installation iso available ... but the future for shipit will be the liveCD/express combo
04:04 mhz ogra: but IIRC, dev team told me users can choose a way to install instead of booting LiveCD?
04:04 TheMuso ogra: Understand. Well we should get both accessible.
04:05 ogra mhz, thats the DVD
04:05 mhz boo
04:05 mhz not fair
04:05 mhz kjcole: cool
04:05 TheMuso I have some ideas for speech accessibility.
04:05 TheMuso But lets not get too far ahead. :)
04:06 hno73 TheMuso: wiki tem :)
04:06 hno73 then
04:06 mhz ogra: sorry, that means X is a must to install from LiveCD?
04:06 hno73 them
04:06 ogra mhz, yes, afaik
04:06 jsgotangco can we make a goal to at least make what's avaialble have improved integration?
=== mhz sighs
04:07 hno73 I think we should make some plans for testing
04:07 dholbach i thought we could have AccessibilityTeam/<Impairement>/{Software,Tests,Goals,Visions,TODO}
04:07 TheMuso That will be easier for keyboard accessibility I think.
04:07 hno73 try to find people who can test and help them with submitting bugs
04:07 jsgotangco yes
04:07 TheMuso Indeed.
=== jsgotangco has access to a school
=== TheMuso has himself.
04:08 hno73 these might not be people who are used to Linux or know what a BTS is
04:08 mhz hno73: any list of applications needing to be tested?
04:08 TheMuso hno73: That is the problem. Those who are used to using Linux are happy with what they have got, and if they were interested in seeing GNOME tools improve, they would be actively contributing.
=== kjcole has access to three schools, but participation is the problem. ;-)
04:08 hno73 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AccessibilityTesting/AssistiveApplications for a start
04:09 mhz kjcole: particpation will come once we start evagelising
04:09 TheMuso I think we need to have a few must-have features to get people's interests before we see some greater and wider participation in testing.
04:09 mhz hno73: duh! srry
04:09 TheMuso IMO
04:09 hno73 We ned to make it easy, which is why I'm suggesting we send out physical discs
04:10 TheMuso I could certainly distribute discs here in Australia.
04:10 hno73 So, what are the killer AT features? :)
04:10 TheMuso For vision impairement and those who need spoken output, software and hardware speech at first installation/language setup, and then in GNOME for Ubuntu Express, and for the standard D-I install.
04:11 TheMuso And have accessibility set up for them once the system boots for the first time.
04:11 hno73 which is also the most controveetial
04:11 jsgotangco how big an issue AT is in AU?
04:11 TheMuso That is the single hardest thing for blind people to manage. They generally need to get help to install Linux, unless they have a hardware speech synthesizer.
04:11 hno73 defaults are always controvertial
04:11 kjcole Forgetting the philisophical and technical for a moment, what's so great about Ubuntu that would induce someone who has problems with written and spoken language, to switch from what they already sort of know (i.e. Winblows)?
04:12 mhz TheMuso: could we have braille intructions as well?
04:12 TheMuso mhz: Yes.
04:12 mhz lke Cd-in
04:12 TheMuso hno73: You referring to things like speech rate?
04:12 kjcole Braille weighs a lot.
04:12 jsgotangco kjcole: we have an commitment to it (AT) explicitly
04:12 hno73 TheMuso: no, to having AT features enabled by default
04:12 TheMuso kjcole: I think mhz was ferring to Braille displays.
04:13 mhz yup
04:13 hno73 which is why the derivative is important
04:13 kjcole Or are we talking about Grade-2 encoded ASCII that prints nicely.
04:13 hno73 but it needs wider distribution
04:13 TheMuso Thats why I am so strong of the opinion that a separate release is necessary.
=== alex___ [n=alex@115stb54.codetel.net.do] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:13 mhz GUYS, i gotta run, I'l be back by night :( I hope this all gets logged in url as usual
04:13 TheMuso Thanks for coming mhz.
04:13 mhz sorry, Bye
04:13 kjcole TheMuso, my bad. ;-)
04:13 dholbach mhz: i'll write it up... bye :)
04:14 dholbach in software design, some people use 'personas', fictional people using the software - can we try testing ubuntu from that perspective? (like in the try-to-send-a-mail exercise?) does that makes sense? i say this, because i feel we should get started as the a11y team and not solely rely on getting other people testing it
04:14 dholbach (i'm not opposed to people testing ubuntu at all... :-))
04:14 hno73 TheMuso: OK, lets talk afterwards about getting a dapper derivative running and getting it distributed a bit
04:15 TheMuso hno73: Ok.
04:15 hno73 dholbach: sure, that sounds good
04:15 dholbach i just feel, we need to get started, somewhere :)
04:15 TheMuso If we tried to think of test like the email exercise, that could work.
04:15 dholbach and apart from distribution/testing i don't see much goals yet
04:15 jsgotangco sure
04:16 jsgotangco at least we're just spewing out ideas at the moment
04:16 ogra categorization ?
04:16 TheMuso I think everything else is so tangled with each other, that it is hard to get one a11y goal settled upon.
04:16 dholbach it's hard, yes
=== lucas [n=lucas@alabama.imag.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:17 dholbach we could investigate in software, that is not in ubuntu yet, we could come up with test plans based on whatever the impairement is and start to make notes, what does not "just work"
04:17 hno73 I think it's ok if we make it clear that these are hypothetic cases, because otherwise we get stuck in 'everyone has individual needs' debates
04:18 hno73 so the stereotyping of users needs to have a clear justification, but then it can work
=== zyga [n=zyga@2-mi2-1.acn.waw.pl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
04:18 hno73 (we know that this is a good method, but others might find it odd)
04:18 kjcole I'll try to find out if there's been any good studies on deafness and computer literacy (since it's primarily literacy that's an issue in the community I know best).
04:19 jsgotangco i'm interestred in mobility impaired issues
04:19 dholbach i will start separating the wiki pages tonight, so that's it's easier to chip in any information we might find useful
=== amu [i=amu@debian/developer/amu] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
04:19 hno73 cool
04:19 dholbach i found dogtail, a tool to test UIs from a a11y perspective - i have no idea, how it works, but i'll take a look into it
04:20 dholbach at-poke was another one
04:20 dholbach i'll try to get them into dapper asap
04:20 kjcole Sounds like we have the beginnings of plans. ;-)
04:20 ogra dholbach, dogtail also tests a11y ??
=== jsgotangco wonders what's with the names
04:20 ogra i only know it as a general testing tool
04:20 hno73 I can start on designing some use cases, but I think they should be debated a bit
04:20 hno73 so we can determine where the boundaries go
04:20 dholbach ogra: "dogtail is a GUI test tool and automation framework written in Python. It uses Accessibility (a11y) technologies to communicate with desktop applications." :)
04:21 TheMuso Nice.
04:21 dholbach hno73: that's super - we can discuss them in the next meeting
04:21 hno73 dholbach: great
04:21 dholbach and i'll try to take care of the mailing list
04:21 dholbach i'll announce it on ubuntu-devel-announce@ as soon as it's there
04:21 TheMuso dholbach: That would be great.
04:22 dholbach yeah
04:22 dholbach the bugs we currently get for a11y are not that much, so i consider assigning them to the mailing list as well (at least as a QA contact)
04:22 dholbach so we're aware of what happens
04:22 TheMuso Ok.
04:22 dholbach and what our users think
04:23 dholbach does somebody have contact to other a11y teams?
04:23 hno73 the elusive mailing list :)
04:23 dholbach like gnome, debian, redhat, sun, ...?
04:23 TheMuso dholbach: I am on the speakup mailing list, but that is more users and one or two developers.
04:23 hno73 a bit with the gnome team
04:23 TheMuso I am on the gnome accessibility user and devel lists, as well as the kde accessibility user list.
04:24 hno73 It's all very spread around
04:24 dholbach it will be good to see, which problems they're facing, what they work on and what they have achieved, so we're up to scratch :)
=== zyga has an a11y related idea
04:24 TheMuso I am also on the linux for blind general discussion list.
04:24 dholbach TheMuso: WOW!
04:24 zyga phone
04:24 TheMuso dholbach: The traffic is very little.
04:24 dholbach it would be cool, if we could do some "market research" until next time
04:25 hno73 I think Sun manages to keep a general level of activity going because they pay 3-4 people to work on it
04:25 TheMuso Yeah.
04:25 hno73 but I'm not aware of any very active grass-roots teams
04:25 TheMuso And there is also Michael Meeks from Novell.
04:25 TheMuso Mostly, it is users asking questions about magnification, and users having problem with gnopernicus.
04:26 hno73 :)
04:26 TheMuso The festival problem is a big one.
04:26 dholbach yeah, we need to have clearly in mind, that we cannot do much upstream development
04:26 dholbach unless somebody steps up for it
04:26 dholbach a working festival would be great
04:26 hno73 Perhaps we should start by identifying stuff that works in Debian but is broken in Ubuntu :(
04:26 TheMuso IMO, gnopernicus is not the answer.
04:27 dholbach hno73: ++
04:27 dholbach ogra: do you think edubuntu has different requirements than ubuntu?
=== TheMuso will set up a Debian installer ASAP, and get GNOME and a11y tools on.
04:27 TheMuso s/installer/install/
04:27 dholbach does anybody of you actively use KDE?
04:27 hno73 I think we should avoid focusing on existing technology that sucks
=== jsgotangco does
04:27 hno73 when there is better stuff on the horizon
04:27 ogra dholbach, not edubuntu specifically, but ltsp
04:27 TheMuso hno73: I think ti sucks, don't know about others. :)
04:28 jsgotangco i have some AT here installed
04:28 hno73 so we don't drain our efforts
04:28 dholbach ogra: is the ltsp community aware of that?
04:28 TheMuso dholbach: KDE's accesibility is coming along, but is nowhere near what GNOME has.
04:28 hno73 we don't have very many users now, but we need to plan for the future
04:28 jsgotangco kmouth is horribly broken it seems
04:28 dholbach TheMuso: oh i see, i didn't know
04:28 jsgotangco no not kmouth, i meant KSayIt
04:28 kjcole I'm talking with my wife, who is deaf, and asked her what possible leads on research and guinea pigs... She says "The World Bank".
04:28 jsgotangco haha
04:28 zyga re
04:28 TheMuso One bug that needs fixing in Ubuntu, is getting gnome-mag built with XDamage extensions for full-screen magnification.
04:29 TheMuso I started looking into it but didn't follow through.
04:29 ogra dholbach, i dont think so ... since *i* am the the ltsp community for ubuntu ... its a totally new implementation
04:29 dholbach TheMuso: will note that down
=== jsgotangco will focus on KDE AT then
04:29 zyga about the idea: we could identify packages from main that are a11y-friendly and display an icon next to them, similar to the 'ubuntu' icon currnelty present
04:29 kjcole There's some sort of global accessibility group there.
04:30 TheMuso jsgotangco: As far as I can see, you won't have much to go on. GNOME will still be the environment for a11y, until QT4 and KDE4 come out.
04:30 TheMuso zyga: Not useful for those who can't see.
04:30 ogra dholbach, i.e. ltsp uses esd for sound and will have a new gstreamr ltspsink ... this must be taken into account ...
04:30 dholbach ogra: so we need that on the test plan as well
04:30 TheMuso Actually, there are also some audio requirements noted by the a11y free standard group.
04:30 dholbach ogra: once it's ready
04:30 zyga TheMuso: yes but that data could be used in gnome-app-install to say 'this program is not a11y friendy'
04:30 Riddell jsgotangco: cool
04:30 TheMuso FOr multimedia frameworks.
04:30 TheMuso If the link is requested, I will post it.
04:30 Riddell TheMuso: why?
04:30 dholbach oh Riddell is here too
04:31 Riddell dholbach: I'm always here :)
04:31 dholbach Riddell: do you know how active the kde-a11y folks are?
04:31 Riddell dholbach: pretty active
04:31 dholbach TheMuso: we will have a AccessbilityTeam/Links page too
04:31 TheMuso Riddell: This is only from what I have been able to gather.
04:31 dholbach i will create the wiki pages tonight
04:31 TheMuso I have not been able to test everything, and to be truthful, I don't know what works with kttsd for example.
04:32 Riddell yeah, I've not tested kttsd, have you jsgotangco?
04:32 kjcole Time for me to go pretend to work on the day before Thanksgiving. (I'm sure someone will "unofficially" tell us we can leave early today.)
04:33 jsgotangco Riddell: it works pretty much
04:33 TheMuso jsgotangco: What have you found? How does one use it?
=== jsgotangco has KTTSManager installed
04:33 jsgotangco well it pretty much works by itself
04:33 hno73 Perhaps we should consider a testing Live DVD with both the Gnome and KDE stuff installed by default
04:34 jsgotangco it says stuff like i have x number of mails from kopete
04:34 TheMuso jsgotangco: What do you mean?
04:34 TheMuso What about menus?
04:34 TheMuso Like the applications menu?
04:34 hno73 Different people will find diferent tools useful
04:34 jsgotangco i havent tried that yet
04:34 dholbach hmmmmm
=== TheMuso must check his setup.
=== jsgotangco tests now
04:34 hno73 I've tried running kmag in gnome, which seems to work well, etc.
04:35 TheMuso Right.
04:35 Riddell the KDE accessibility guys have a really nice looking new magnifier using composite in the works
04:35 jsgotangco kmag is pretty good
04:35 jsgotangco but kde lacks an on screen keyboard
04:35 Riddell jsgotangco: that's the part that will stay missing until qt4/kde4 alas
04:35 jsgotangco ahhh
04:36 hno73 KDE and Gnome also made a statement that they will actively collaborate on AT, and I think we should support that sentiment
=== jsgotangco can't find the settings for talking menus via KTTS
04:36 dholbach can everybody interested in a11y tell me their mail address in a query, so i can get a mail out and we can follow up like that until we hav ethe mailing list?
04:36 TheMuso hno73: I agree.
04:36 TheMuso They are looking at using dbus.
04:37 Riddell jriddell@ubuntu.com
04:37 hno73 query? henrik@ubuntu.com :)
04:37 Riddell oh, query, ah well
04:37 ogra ogra@ubuntu.com
04:37 jsgotangco jgotangco@ubuntu.com
04:37 dholbach when you think we should wrap up, could everybody state what they're going to do until the meeting in 2 weeks time?
=== jsgotangco tests further kde stuff i guess
=== hno73 will set up some use cases
04:38 kjcole kjcole@gri.gallaudet.edu
=== TheMuso will continue working on a Breezy live CD derivative, hopefully with spoken language selection.
04:38 jsgotangco hno73: the use cases can be useful for testing what we currently have and help us test it
=== dholbach will look into new software, will set up the wiki pages ASAP, get the mailing list going
=== kjcole will try to recruit some students here for testing, and will look into research on computer literacy among deaf
04:39 hno73 TheMuso: would you consider basing it on dapper instead?
04:39 hno73 so we can stay ahead of the ball a bit?
=== ogra will test the apps with ltsp, once they are there
04:40 TheMuso hno73: Yeah I could. I will try to base it on flight.
04:40 TheMuso Trouble is, a lot has changed since then, and things could be broken.
04:40 hno73 TheMuso: I'll encourage some dev people to help you
04:40 hno73 if need be
04:40 TheMuso Thats why I am trying with breezy for the moment, to give me a stable environment in which to work,.
04:41 hno73 TheMuso: tell me if you need access to a server to build on, etc.
04:41 TheMuso As some of the work involves creating debian-installer udeb packages.
04:41 TheMuso hno73: Ok. I am only doing i386 atm.
04:41 TheMuso And have access to PowerPC.
04:41 dholbach TheMuso: is this something, that cannot be in the proper d-i at the moment?
04:42 dholbach TheMuso: if you need an amd64 to work on, tell me
04:42 TheMuso dholbach: It involves making udebs of core alsa packages.
04:42 hno73 TheMuso: yeah, but I mean one with a decent connection for moving stuff around
04:42 TheMuso hno73: That might be helpful.
04:42 dholbach TheMuso: did colin watson have reservations on this?
04:42 TheMuso I have emailed Colin a while back, but never got a responce
04:43 dholbach he must have been busy then... as a team we should ask again
04:43 TheMuso I wouldn't be surprised if my approach is hacky, but I am just trying to see if I can get it working. Software speech for installation has not been done yet.
04:43 TheMuso dholbach: That would be great!
04:43 dholbach TheMuso: he's not someone who doesnt respond to people
04:44 TheMuso I didn't think so.
04:44 hno73 OK, I think we've gotten a fair bit done :)
04:44 jsgotangco are you implying something? :D
04:44 dholbach yeah
04:44 hno73 huh ?
04:44 dholbach i'm quite happy, with what we discussed... for a first meeting this was really good
04:45 TheMuso Agreed.
04:45 dholbach next time, we'll be better organized :)
04:45 jsgotangco pretty good brain storm
04:45 dholbach ROCK :)
04:45 kjcole I'm just here for the karma points. ;-)
04:45 dholbach tssssss :)
04:45 TheMuso Maybe we should also think of an agenda for the next meeting, and put it on the page linked to in the topic.
04:45 jsgotangco lol
04:45 jsgotangco announce the formation on the fridge!
04:46 jsgotangco and make fridget accessible!
04:46 jsgotangco heh
04:46 TheMuso hahaha.
04:46 hno73 The AT team forms (again)
=== TheMuso must look at that site one day.
04:46 dholbach TheMuso, jsgotangco : yeah, this was a first meeting, with less people to be sure, we come to at least *SOME* conclusions :)
04:46 kjcole Agenda? We don't need no stinking agenda! (But it's a good idea, Lord.)
04:47 TheMuso Like the discussion of moving some important packages from Universe to main, upgrading them, etc.
04:47 dholbach TheMuso: we should have a TODO page on the wiki for that
=== hno73 is working on a general accessible moin theme, which I'll try to push onto the fridge as well in time
04:47 TheMuso dholbach: Yeah.
04:47 jsgotangco what else is in universe that needs to be fleshed out?
04:47 TheMuso BrlTTY.
04:47 jsgotangco (aside from some KDE stuff)
04:47 jsgotangco ahhh
04:48 dholbach TheMuso: yeah, didnt manage to do that for breezy
04:48 dholbach TheMuso: because it needed something newer in main and it was past upstream version freeze, when i got that bug
04:48 Riddell jsgotangco: moving kdeaccessibility to main would be cool but it probably has a lot of dependencies
04:48 TheMuso It also needs an upgrade. I remember reading something about it possibly being done for Debian, but haven't checked that.
04:48 jsgotangco Riddell: it has tons, i can make an inclusion draft perhaps
=== jsgotangco has to investigate
04:49 hno73 This is why I think we need to focus on dapper
04:49 hno73 to get the bug reports in on time
04:49 dholbach yeah
04:49 jsgotangco right
04:49 dholbach anything else, we need to discuss (apart next meeting's time and date)?
04:49 TheMuso hno73: Fair enough.
=== TheMuso can do this time again if given some advanced notice.
04:50 hno73 same time in 2 weeks would work for me
04:50 jsgotangco i think this is a good time
04:50 TheMuso I just don't like using dapper for my main systems.
04:50 dholbach we will spread the word next time beforhand
04:50 dholbach december, 7th, 14:30 utc?
04:50 jsgotangco nice
04:50 TheMuso Sounds alright.
04:50 kjcole A wee bit awkward for me timewise, but doable. (I go to the Edubuntu meeting at 7:00 AM my time.)
04:51 dholbach excellent... a notice one week before should be fine, so we can get an agenda together and the wiki up to scratch
04:51 TheMuso kjcole: Well this meeting for me is 1:30AM my time.
04:51 dholbach TheMuso: where do you live?
04:51 TheMuso dholbach: Australia.
04:51 dholbach oh i see :)
04:52 jsgotangco its only midnight here in manila
04:52 TheMuso But as I said, given advanced notice, I can do it.
04:52 kjcole TheMuso: I feel for you. So far, I haven't had any meetings THAT awkward.
04:52 jsgotangco kjcole: try 4am meetings
04:52 dholbach if you have another idea of when to meet, just say so - we can rotate the times
04:52 TheMuso Well I can make just about any time. I can fit in with everybody else.
04:52 kjcole jsgotangco: I'm not that dedicated / masochistic.
04:53 jsgotangco lol
04:53 jsgotangco hno73: you got a minute or two via pm?
04:53 hno73 jsgotangco: yep
04:54 kjcole jsgotangco: although, truth be told, two days ago I installed Edubuntu, and stayed up almost 24 hours tinkering with it and restoring stuff to it. (It was a Fedora box.)
04:54 dholbach ok, then we close this meeting for now?
04:54 TheMuso Sounds fine by me.
04:55 kjcole Yup. Later all...
04:55 dholbach thank you very much, everybody who attended the meeting and gave so good input
04:55 dholbach we will form a rocking accessibility team
04:56 TheMuso hno73: Did you have something to talk to me about? I am going back through the logs to work out what it may have been.
04:56 dholbach and make dapper an excellent release
04:58 TheMuso SOrry, it was jsgotangco.
04:58 jsgotangco er?
04:58 TheMuso Never mind, I think ti was covered.
04:59 TheMuso hno73: We covered the derivative a little in the meeting, unless there is anything else you want to mention?
05:01 dholbach *wave*
=== TheMuso will now go and get some sleep. :)
05:02 hno73 TheMuso: cool, lets sum up on email
05:02 TheMuso Ok.
05:03 TheMuso bye all.
=== TheMuso [n=luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
05:05 jsgotangco k good night as wellMeetingLogs/Accessibility_2005-11-23 (last edited 2008-08-06 16:22:42 by localhost)