## page was renamed from MeetingLogs/Technical-2007-01-30
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(03:09:10 PM) Keybuk: ok, let's get going
(03:09:23 PM) mdz_: good evening

(03:09:31 PM) Keybuk: First up: core-dev
(03:09:37 PM) Keybuk: I don't have anyone on my list for that
(03:09:48 PM) Keybuk: is there anyone here who's applied for core-dev, and thinks they should be on that list?
(03:10:22 PM) Keybuk: ok

(03:10:29 PM) Keybuk: next up: ubuntu-dev
(03:11:06 PM) Adri2000: yep :)
(03:11:08 PM) Keybuk: on my list, I have metres, mlind, Praveen Kumar, EtienneG, prash, TheMuso & Adri2000
(03:11:22 PM) tepsipakki: me too
(03:11:31 PM) ***TheMuso is here.
(03:11:36 PM) ***mvo is here to advocate for etienneg
(03:11:58 PM) Keybuk: is EtienneG here?
(03:12:04 PM) EtienneG: Keybuk, yep !
(03:12:18 PM) Keybuk: you're first in date order; so introduce yourself

(03:12:26 PM) EtienneG: excellent
(03:12:35 PM) EtienneG: I am support analyst in the Mtl office
(03:12:52 PM) EtienneG: Launchpad packaging page : https://launchpad.net/~etienne-goyer-outlands/+packages
(03:13:22 PM) Keybuk: you package bzr?
(03:13:23 PM) EtienneG: I am also responsible for bzr package on http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/packages
(03:13:30 PM) mdz_: EtienneG: in addition, I understand you've been doing some packaging for the commercial repository, which is maintained outside of launchpad
(03:13:36 PM) EtienneG: Keybuk, yep, i took this over from jbailey
(03:13:47 PM) EtienneG: mdz, indeed
(03:14:02 PM) EtienneG: latest package there have been SugarCRM
(03:14:23 PM) EtienneG: I also package a few Canonical-internal things
(03:14:23 PM) sabdfl: have you worked with any MOTU?
(03:14:32 PM) EtienneG: sabdfl, not yet unfortunately
(03:14:42 PM) sabdfl: i think that's important to join ubuntu-dev
(03:14:50 PM) EtienneG: I had the chance of getting all my package sponsored by jbailey and mvo
(03:15:05 PM) sabdfl: i know that i knock on your door for things like bzr packaging but ubuntu-dev is all about motu
(03:15:11 PM) mvo: EtienneG worked with me quite a bit and I'm very happy with the work he is doing
(03:15:32 PM) mdz: EtienneG: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers ?
(03:15:38 PM) EtienneG: mdz, yes
(03:16:39 PM) EtienneG: mostly, i am looking for more autonomy in the maintenance of bzr-related package
(03:16:53 PM) EtienneG: and to lessen the workload on my usual sponsors (mvo, jbailey)
(03:17:11 PM) sabdfl: i have a suggestion
(03:17:25 PM) EtienneG: I'm all ear
(03:17:36 PM) sabdfl: if we approve the motu council today, then all you would need is two motu council folks to +1 you and you'd be in there
(03:17:53 PM) sabdfl: that way you'd be known to them
(03:17:57 PM) sabdfl: since you're joining their team
(03:18:16 PM) EtienneG: sabdfl, sound perfectly good to me
(03:18:19 PM) sabdfl: for my part, +1, you can quote me on that
(03:18:28 PM) sabdfl: cool
(03:18:37 PM) EtienneG: sabdfl, thanks !
(03:18:41 PM) mdz: sabdfl++
(03:19:14 PM) sabdfl: ok, let's see if EtienneG can be the test case for the NewStreamlinedMotuProcess
(03:19:37 PM) mdz: EtienneG: I think it's especially important in your case, as a Canonical employee, that you become more involved with the community, since it's easy to work with other developers internally and not develop a good relationship with the developer community
(03:20:00 PM) jbailey_: mdz: How does that affect upload rights for -commerical, though?
(03:20:33 PM) mdz: jbailey_: upload rights for -commercial should be the same as -core-dev, since it's nearly equivalent to main in terms of its presentation to users
(03:20:56 PM) sabdfl: -commercial isn't enabled by default, though?
(03:21:07 PM) mdz: it's designated "supported" in the UI
(03:21:24 PM) sabdfl: ok
(03:22:38 PM) sabdfl: if you have a quick, clear cut case we can +1 you now
(03:22:44 PM) sabdfl: otherwise, we'll defer to MOTU council
(03:22:45 PM) sabdfl: ok?
(03:23:06 PM) mdz: ok with me
(03:23:42 PM) mdz: deferring to the MOTU countil should be much more convenient than coming to a future TB meeting, according to the docs
(03:23:45 PM) mdz: council, even
(03:24:14 PM) sabdfl: (w.r.t. mdz's comment that's because you can approach any 2 of the council at any time, not scheduled meetings like this, iirc)
(03:24:22 PM) mdz: (yes)
(03:23:15 PM) tepsipakki: cool, so I'm up next?
(03:23:17 PM) Keybuk: ok with me too
(03:23:19 PM) sabdfl: fire away
(03:23:46 PM) sabdfl: candidates, if you could write up your three line intro, url's to wiki pages, packaging histories etc, that would make things go smoothly

(03:24:03 PM) Keybuk: tepsipakki: you registered for ubuntu-dev almost 6 months ago; how come it's taken you so long to reach a TB meeting?
(03:24:35 PM) tepsipakki: keybuk: I was here last time ;)
(03:24:40 PM) tepsipakki: but you were not :)
(03:24:49 PM) tepsipakki: so the meeting was cancelled
(03:25:02 PM) ajmitch: I think at one point you didn't have enough contributions, right?
(03:25:12 PM) tepsipakki: yes, that was in october
(03:25:44 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: what have you been working on since then?
(03:25:51 PM) tepsipakki: anyway, here's the wiki-page for the impatient: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
(03:26:14 PM) tepsipakki: there you can find links to the merges/syncs I've requested
(03:26:33 PM) tepsipakki: (and other work, but that's what is new)
(03:26:57 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: it mentions that you've been testing automated netboot installations. that's great, as those aren't tested as often as some other installation methods
(03:27:03 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: how do you report your test results?
(03:27:18 PM) tepsipakki: poke colin ;)
(03:27:42 PM) tepsipakki: when the installer team was created, I joined shortly after
(03:27:46 PM) mdz: tepsipakki: there is a wiki page which explains how to report results so that everyone can see them :-)
(03:28:00 PM) tepsipakki: yeah, of course
(03:28:04 PM) tepsipakki: I file bugs too
(03:28:19 PM) tepsipakki: and sometimes even write patches to fix them
(03:28:39 PM) tepsipakki: there are some that are on my list for feisty
(03:29:00 PM) tepsipakki: which would make the installation a bit more robust
(03:29:03 PM) sabdfl: cjwatson: any comment on interactions with timo?
(03:29:19 PM) mdz: Colin is on a train somewhere, or on his way to one, unfortunately
(03:29:58 PM) dholbach: tepsipakki did very well on looking at gnome-screensaver bugs - i got lots of mails :)
(03:30:04 PM) tepsipakki: his comments are available if the logs of the cancelled meeting are somewhere
(03:30:19 PM) sabdfl: +1 from me, lots of work across a variety of packages, and clearly interacting with the right folks in a sensible way
(03:30:22 PM) tepsipakki: oh yes, g-s is a pet of mine (sometimes)
(03:30:39 PM) sabdfl: tepsipakki: would you care to join the beta.launchpad.net group to take a peek?
(03:31:07 PM) tepsipakki: sabdfl: what's that about?
(03:31:20 PM) tepsipakki: oh, a test site?
(03:31:53 PM) tepsipakki: sure, if I only could get in ;)
(03:32:00 PM) tepsipakki: ah
(03:32:19 PM) mdz: Jan 16 12:01:21 <cjwatson> I can't be here for the TB meeting, but I'd like to express support for Timo Aaltonen; he's been useful on d-i work in the past and has expressed interest in helping out with installer merge work
(03:32:50 PM) mdz: +1 based on positive feedback from dholbach and cjwatson
(03:32:53 PM) Keybuk: +1 from me also
(03:33:01 PM) sabdfl: cool - welcome aboard, timo!
(03:33:15 PM) tepsipakki: thanks!
(03:33:18 PM) sabdfl: np
(03:33:18 PM) tepsipakki: to all
(03:34:58 PM) sistpoty: welcome tepsipakki
(03:33:50 PM) Keybuk: ok

(03:33:51 PM) Keybuk: next is TheMuso
(03:33:55 PM) TheMuso: I am Luke Yelavich, a 24 year old job seeker from Sydney, Australia. I am a member of the Ubuntu accessibility team, and have been working with MOTU for over 12 months with merges, and some bug triaging, mostly accessibility related.
(03:34:00 PM) TheMuso: wiki page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukeYelavich
(03:34:00 PM) TheMuso: Launchpad page: http://launchpad.net/people/themuso
(03:34:00 PM) TheMuso: Packages: https://launchpad.net/~themuso/+packages
(03:35:05 PM) sabdfl: yowser :-)
(03:35:07 PM) ***heno would like to add that Luke has been a strong driving force in the accessibility team
(03:35:11 PM) Keybuk: so, err, any questions for TheMuso ?
(03:35:16 PM) dholbach: heno++
(03:35:45 PM) TheMuso: I believe crimsun emailed the TB about the work I have done with him.
(03:35:56 PM) Keybuk: "It is my pleasure to endorse fully the application of Luke Yelavich for
(03:35:57 PM) Keybuk: ubuntu-dev membership. For over one year, he has worked diligently in
(03:35:57 PM) Keybuk: MOTU on packaging and bug triaging (mostly a11y-related) and has
(03:35:57 PM) Keybuk: demonstrated positive interactions both in MOTU and with upstreams.
(03:35:57 PM) Keybuk: Ubuntu has gained a valuable contributor in Luke, and I welcome him to
(03:35:57 PM) Keybuk: the ubuntu-dev ranks."
(03:35:59 PM) Keybuk: he did
(03:36:00 PM) mdz: I'm familiar with TheMuso's accessibility work through henrik
(03:36:16 PM) ***sistpoty cheers for TheMuso
(03:36:18 PM) sabdfl: i've met luke in paris, iirc
(03:36:26 PM) Amaranth: TheMuso: I thought you were already ubuntu-dev
(03:36:34 PM) TheMuso: sabdfl: Briefly, but yes we did.
(03:36:39 PM) sabdfl: +1 from me based on a long track record of work generally, and specifically for contributions to ally
(03:37:22 PM) Keybuk: +1 from me also; Luke's contributions are well known to everyone, I think
(03:38:01 PM) mdz: +1
(03:38:04 PM) sabdfl: TheMuso: maybe you could tell us what your single biggest hope for ubuntu is in 2007?
(03:38:36 PM) TheMuso: sabdfl: All I can say, si improving accessibility even further. There is still a long way to go, but every release we still manage to get something in that is new and useful.
(03:40:06 PM) sabdfl: well done TheMuso, your work is really important, and i hope you continue to draw a community around you to drive this forward
(03:40:16 PM) TheMuso: sabdfl: Thanks.
(03:38:51 PM) mdz: Keybuk: is anyone else from your list present?

(03:38:59 PM) Keybuk: Adri2000 is
(03:39:04 PM) Adri2000: I am :)
(03:39:07 PM) Keybuk: Adri2000: please introduce yourself
(03:39:15 PM) Adri2000: I'm Adrien Cunin, 16 years old french student.
(03:39:15 PM) Adri2000: My work on universe/multiverse packages: bug fixes, merges/syncs, new upstream releases. Also some new packages, I now maintain two of them in Debian.
(03:39:15 PM) Adri2000: All of that is described on my wiki page, so take a look at it ;)
(03:39:15 PM) Adri2000: My plans as a MOTU: I will keep doing general motu stuff (bugs, merges, syncs, new upstream releases...), but also (more detailed on the wiki): collaboration with Debian (I already often file bugs in the Debian BTS), QA, help/sponsor/revu MOTU hopefuls/enthusiasts.
(03:39:17 PM) Adri2000: Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdrienCunin | LP: https://launchpad.net/~adri2000 | Packages: https://launchpad.net/~adri2000/+packages
(03:39:29 PM) Adri2000: The main MOTUs I've worked with are gpocentek (he's here), crimsun (he sent an email to technical-board at lists.ubuntu.com) and also geser (I think he's here).
(03:39:50 PM) Keybuk: "In the past several months, Adrien has worked diligently with MOTU in
(03:39:50 PM) Keybuk: bug triaging, in merging and syncing Ubuntu universe source packages,
(03:39:50 PM) Keybuk: and in helping community members who are not as well versed with Debian
(03:39:50 PM) Keybuk: packaging on REVU. His dedication to assisting MOTU hopefuls, too, is
(03:39:50 PM) Keybuk: noteworthy and illustrates the positive influence that anyone can have
(03:39:51 PM) Keybuk: on the Ubuntu distribution. I welcome him as a ubuntu-dev member."
(03:40:21 PM) sabdfl: Keybuk: quoth?
(03:40:31 PM) Keybuk: sabdfl: crimsun on tb mailing list about Adri2000
(03:40:11 PM) ***gpocentek cheers for Adri2000 :)
(03:40:19 PM) ***sistpoty cheers for Adri2000 as well
(03:40:20 PM) Mithrandir: FWIW, I've seen a fair amount of sync requests from Adri2000 which so far have been good.
(03:40:36 PM) gpocentek: he's done a great work on the packages I've reviewed/uploaded
(03:40:37 PM) mdz: Adri2000: where did you learn Debian packaging?
(03:41:07 PM) Adri2000: mdz: with gpocentek's lessons in #ubuntu-fr-classroom and then in #ubuntu-motu :)
(03:41:15 PM) ***Toadstool sneaks in, waves and cheers for Adri2000
(03:41:53 PM) sabdfl: NO BUGS AT ALL?
(03:42:09 PM) sabdfl: must be no users :-)
(03:42:33 PM) Hawkwind left the room ("It's a true sign that you need a life if you just sat there and read this quit message!").
(03:43:10 PM) sabdfl: you've touched a lot of packages, Adri2000, is there a theme to your work?
(03:43:14 PM) mdz: gpocentek: can you be more specific about your experience?
(03:43:57 PM) Adri2000: sabdfl: not really, I don't have any favourite kind of package
(03:44:01 PM) mdz: gpocentek: what gives you the feeling that Adri2000 is ready to upload without review?
(03:44:12 PM) gpocentek: mdz: well, all the packages I've reviewed were good, with no need to fix them
(03:44:39 PM) Adri2000: sabdfl: just want to make universe even better :)
(03:44:53 PM) gpocentek: mdz: he is also really helpful to others, and I think that's because he knows how to do things well
(03:45:34 PM) mdz: Adri2000: how does homebank compare to gnucash?
(03:47:16 PM) Adri2000: well, I packaged homebank and merged gnucash but I can't really say because I don't use them very often (just to test)
(03:48:14 PM) mdz: Adri2000: really? why would you want to maintain a package which is of no use to you?
(03:50:16 PM) Adri2000: IIRC, I found homebank on MOTU/Packages/Candidates (requests from users) and the website was looking for packagers, so I emailed upstream and packaged it
(03:50:50 PM) Adri2000: and I'm still in touch with upstream and still maintain it (bugs, new upstream releases), even if I don't use it daily
(03:51:41 PM) mdz: interesting
(03:51:49 PM) mdz: sabdfl: any further questions?
(03:51:56 PM) sabdfl: i'm quite happy with what i've seen - lots of package work, and goot references from motu and -core-dev. +1 from me
(03:52:17 PM) LaserJock: mdz: it's Universe, most of what we "maintain" we don't actually use
(03:52:17 PM) mdz: +1 as well, thanks and good luck
(03:52:31 PM) sabdfl: scott is away
(03:52:36 PM) sabdfl: so let's take 2 as quorum
(03:52:38 PM) sabdfl: welcome aboard!
(03:52:45 PM) mdz: LaserJock: it's different when you're a designated maintainer for a package, its primary caregiver
(03:53:13 PM) LaserJock: mdz: but we stress in Universe to not have a designated maintainer
(03:53:20 PM) LaserJock: it's MOTU maintained
(03:54:38 PM) mdz: LaserJock: indeed, we don't work exclusively, but to me it's surprising to package and devote special attention to a package one doesn't use at all
(03:52:55 PM) gpocentek: congrats Adri2000 :)
(03:53:02 PM) Adri2000: thanks all!

(03:53:41 PM) mdz: that leaves metres, mlind, Praveen Kumar, prash from Keybuk's list
(03:53:47 PM) Lure: mdz, sabdfl: I applied when meeting started, so not sure if I should wait next round (MOTU Conucil)
(03:54:01 PM) sabdfl: lure, that's fine, join the end of the list
(03:54:10 PM) sabdfl: metres?
(03:54:12 PM) sabdfl: not here
(03:54:18 PM) sabdfl: mlind not here
(03:54:34 PM) sabdfl: praveen?
(03:54:38 PM) sabdfl: not here
(03:54:47 PM) dholbach: I mailed them all (not mlind, because I've seen him around and thought he's show up)
(03:54:51 PM) sabdfl: prash - not here!
(03:54:57 PM) sabdfl: that was quick :-)
(03:55:07 PM) sabdfl: dholbach: i think this will all be easier with the new process
(03:55:21 PM) dholbach: sabdfl: yeah
(03:55:25 PM) mdz: Lure is here

(03:55:30 PM) sabdfl: roll on Lure :-)
(03:55:31 PM) Lure: Luka Renko, Kubuntu team member contributing for around a year, main interests
(03:55:32 PM) Lure: are laptop and network support. Applying for MOTU to offload sponsors for
(03:55:32 PM) Lure: some packages of my interest (eqonomize, soundkonverter, powersave, kpowersave).
(03:55:40 PM) Lure: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko LP: https://launchpad.net/~lure/+packages
(03:55:43 PM) mdz: Lure: who has been uploading your packages?
(03:56:00 PM) Lure: I mainly work with Kubuntu team (Riddell, Tonio_, Hobbsee
(03:56:17 PM) mdz: are any of them here?
(03:56:23 PM) Lure: Some universe upload were done also by crimsun, geser, bddebian
(03:56:48 PM) mdz: I've seen your name around, but I can't say that I'm familiar with your work
(03:57:13 PM) Lure: mdz: my primary work is actually on main stuff for Kubuntu laptop/network support
(03:57:32 PM) Lure: mdz: I was also on UDS-MTV
(03:57:56 PM) Lure: mdz: I apply for motu, primarily to get my universe work directly
(03:58:09 PM) sabdfl: Lure: how is the kubuntu community shaping up?
(03:58:26 PM) Lure: sabdfl: I think better and better which each release
(03:58:50 PM) mdz: Lure: I see, thanks
(03:58:56 PM) mdz: Lure: though I don't have any direct experience of your work
(03:58:59 PM) Lure: sabdfl: we have some coders now for bug squasing and 3-4 active core-devs
(04:00:02 PM) Lure: sabdfl: I can say each release we get quite some new names on board
(04:00:06 PM) mdz: Lure: it's best if the people you've worked with can tell the board about their experience working with you, as we can't know everything directly
(04:00:45 PM) Lure: mdz: yep, I applied late, so could not arrange to get them here
(04:01:16 PM) sabdfl: what about QA?
(04:01:53 PM) Lure: sabdfl: we have now kubunut-testers activity, kicked-off by mhb and hope we can get more interest
(04:02:27 PM) sabdfl: Lure: your packages uploaded list is impressive, clearly people trust you enough to upload
(04:02:42 PM) sabdfl: but i think it would be best to get some testimonials
(04:02:54 PM) sabdfl: with the new process, they could send a signed email testimonial to the MOTU council
(04:03:07 PM) sabdfl: could you pursue that with them?
(04:03:10 PM) Lure: sabdfl: I can wait another round (through council)
(04:03:16 PM) sabdfl: unless someone is available now that you have worked with?
(04:03:23 PM) sabdfl: who has sponsored most of your uploads?
(04:03:41 PM) Lure: sabdfl: Riddell and Tonio_
(04:03:58 PM) Lure: sabdfl: I ping them recently, but they do not seem to be around
(04:03:58 PM) mdz: it's problematic for us to make a decision on something as sensitive as broad upload privileges based only on information provided by the applicant
(04:04:16 PM) Lure: mdz: I am fine to go through conucil
(04:04:18 PM) sabdfl: (though clearly people have been willing to upload your packages)
(04:04:49 PM) sabdfl: ok, should be quick and easy
(04:05:27 PM) Lure: glad to test the new process ;-)
(04:05:56 PM) Lure: Hobbsee might say something about my work (but still most uploads were in main) ;-)
(04:06:11 PM) mdz: ok
(04:06:13 PM) Lure: so lets postpone it
(04:06:24 PM) mdz: thanks for your patience
(04:06:35 PM) mdz: on with the agenda: the MOTU council is next
(04:06:36 PM) Lure: mdz: no problem

(04:06:37 PM) mdz: dholbach: ?
(03:19:29 PM) dholbach: ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MotuProcessesSpec )
(04:07:14 PM) dholbach: ok... the main processes are sorted out already, but there are some things to the motu council can not decide for themselves, like nomination process, term length, etc
(04:07:27 PM) mdz: dholbach: does the MOTU council already have CC approval?
(04:07:51 PM) dholbach: CC members told me that the TB was going to approve the MC
(04:08:20 PM) sabdfl: yes - we are happy, TB should approve and appoint
(04:08:50 PM) dholbach: shall we just go through the list on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda ?
(04:08:59 PM) mdz: sure
(04:09:04 PM) mdz: first item is the nomination process
(04:09:14 PM) dholbach: ok, some people wanted to know more about the nomination process
(04:09:30 PM) mdz: I think council members should be nominated by MOTU, and confirmed by the tech board
(04:10:44 PM) mdz: or possibly the reverse
(04:11:21 PM) sabdfl: with the CC / TB, SABDFL nominates and community votes to confirm or select a subset of the nomination
(04:11:26 PM) sabdfl: i'd prefer the same for MOTU council
(04:11:32 PM) sabdfl: folks can of course say they are interested
(04:11:49 PM) mdz: it should be consistent with other team councils
(04:12:10 PM) dholbach: it makes sense to me
(04:12:19 PM) dholbach: any questions from any MOTUs about that?
(04:12:30 PM) mdz: the current draft doesn't specify any nomination at all, as far as I see
(04:12:33 PM) dholbach: (or MOTU hopefuls :))
(04:12:48 PM) dholbach: yes, that's right
(04:12:51 PM) LaserJock: so what is the proposal? TB nominates and MOTUs vote to confirm?
(04:12:57 PM) sabdfl: well
(04:13:03 PM) sabdfl: on the other hand
(04:13:14 PM) sabdfl: the TB is confirmed by ALL developers, including motu
(04:13:16 PM) sabdfl: so
(04:13:17 PM) ajmitch: sabdfl: are you familiar enough with various MOTUs who are involved?
(04:13:27 PM) LaserJock: that's what I was thinking
(04:13:27 PM) sabdfl: it might be simpler just to say "the TB appoint MOTU council" and be done
(04:13:33 PM) sabdfl: they will obviously try to get it right
(04:13:43 PM) sabdfl: and be sensitive to suggestions that they did not, if that happens
(04:14:42 PM) sabdfl: should we go with the lighter touch?
(04:15:32 PM) mdz: I'm happy with a process which is consistent with other team councils
(04:15:33 PM) LaserJock: I personally don't care as much how it's done ( I trust TB ) as that it does get done
(04:15:41 PM) mdz: nominations from TB and confirmation from MOTU sounds reasonable
(04:16:16 PM) Lure: mdz: fyi, Kubuntu council was nominated and elected by Kubuntu team members
(04:16:27 PM) Lure: mdz: not sure if this is same
(04:16:27 PM) sabdfl: i think the confirmation is excess bureacracy, but i've no problem if MOTU prefers it that way
(04:16:52 PM) sabdfl: in general should be nomination by the body that is getting reported to, then confirmation from the group they represent
(04:16:52 PM) LaserJock: Edubuntu Council was nominated and elected by Edubuntu people as well
(04:17:24 PM) sistpoty: sabdfl: I think confirmation is a good thing... gives motu's the feeling that they have some participation in the process as well
(04:17:36 PM) sabdfl: ok
(04:17:50 PM) sabdfl: both edubuntu and kubuntu jumped the queue, a little
(04:17:57 PM) sabdfl: but hey, they picked DAMN GOOD PEOPLE!
(04:18:11 PM) TheMuso: For the time I've been involved with MOTU, I've got the impression that it is a very close knit community.
(04:18:15 PM) sabdfl: let's agree on TB nomination, MOTU confirmation, and move on
(04:18:23 PM) mdz: agreed
(04:18:30 PM) dholbach: "Discuss ubuntumembers and ubuntu-core-dev membership requirements with CC and TB."
(04:18:36 PM) Hobbsee: among MOTU, i suspect that there are certain people that stand out, that would be good for the job, like there were for kubuntu
(04:18:40 PM) mdz: ubuntumembers?
(04:18:52 PM) Lure: mdz: I think similar could be done for Kubuntu/Edubuntu in future: CC nomination, team confirmation
(04:18:59 PM) dholbach: that doesn't make sense
(04:19:11 PM) mdz: ubuntu-core-dev guidelines are documented on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
(04:19:31 PM) mdz: ubuntumembers are determined by the CC and its delegates
(04:19:44 PM) dholbach: I think some people wanted to make sure that the list of requirements / things the MC wants to check for applicants is ok with the TB
(04:19:48 PM) mdz: TB interprets the -core-dev guidelines and approves new core developers
(04:20:10 PM) mdz: dholbach: likewise for ubuntu-dev; I've written down what I think are the fundamental traits of an Ubuntu developer
(04:20:19 PM) mdz: dholbach: the MOTU council should use those when considering applicants
(04:20:34 PM) sabdfl: i'd say 2 year term, staggered
(04:20:34 PM) dholbach: right, I think we can move on
(04:20:45 PM) sabdfl: so we nominate half for one year now, half for two years
(04:20:50 PM) LaserJock: but how we determaine if an applicant has those traits would be up to the MC?
(04:20:58 PM) sabdfl: then renew/replace the 1st half in a year
(04:21:05 PM) sabdfl: then it becomes regular 2-year appointments
(04:21:20 PM) sabdfl: also, MOTU would be granting membership
(04:21:25 PM) sabdfl: so they of course need to factor that in too
(04:21:41 PM) sabdfl: i.o.w. make ubuntu-dev a part of ubuntumembers
(04:21:48 PM) sabdfl: so folks don't have to go to two meetings
(04:21:49 PM) sistpoty: hm... not quite sure if 2 years is a bit too long... many of our "good" motu's moved from universe to main during shorter time
(04:21:51 PM) dholbach: 2 year is quite a while - are the other council memberships also that long?
(04:21:53 PM) sabdfl: once they are a -dev, they are a member
(04:22:05 PM) sabdfl: sistpoty: they can of course stay on the governance of MOTU
(04:22:09 PM) sabdfl: they would be experienced
(04:22:10 PM) LaserJock: Edubuntu Council is 2 releases (1 year)
(04:22:12 PM) Lure: dholbach: kubuntu council is 1 year
(04:22:17 PM) mdz: LaserJock: yes, though they should justify their decision when making it
(04:22:18 PM) sabdfl: i would want to have -core-dev representation on the council
(04:22:44 PM) TheMuso: There is imbrandon and crimsun who also are regular MOTU contributers who are core-dev.
(04:22:47 PM) dholbach: sistpoty: I don't think that doing things in 'main' hinders people from working with MOTUs
(04:22:59 PM) sabdfl: Lure, LaserJock: it gets tiresome to do the voting more often that once per year, and if you want a rolling council, then you need to vote at least twice during one term
(04:23:06 PM) Hobbsee: Lure: we must be coming up to that, surely?
(04:23:24 PM) sistpoty: dholbach: no, it doesn't... but from my experience ppl. will have much less time for universe then ;)
(04:23:47 PM) sabdfl: sistpoty: i suspect that will become less true as the pool grows
(04:23:58 PM) sabdfl: though it's definitely been true so far
(04:24:06 PM) sistpoty: sabdfl: I hope so :)
(04:24:07 PM) dholbach: sistpoty: I think that everybody on the MC will know what is expected from him/her and live up to that :)
(04:24:27 PM) sabdfl: -core-dev is hugely dependent on good work in motu
(04:25:21 PM) sabdfl: dholbach: do you have the list of proposed MC members we discussed?
(04:25:49 PM) dholbach: sabdfl: yeah
(04:26:03 PM) sabdfl: list 'em?
(04:26:14 PM) dholbach: sabdfl: we discussed crimsun, sistpoty, gpocentek and ajmitch
(04:26:29 PM) sabdfl: and you?
(04:26:43 PM) dholbach: and me
(04:27:16 PM) sabdfl: how about we nominate 3 for 2 year terms, and 2 for a one year term (they could be renewed)
(04:27:40 PM) sabdfl: alphabetically, a, c, d, g, s
(04:27:51 PM) sabdfl: how about we just nominate a, d, s for 2 year terms
(04:27:56 PM) sabdfl: and c, g for 1 year term?
(04:28:07 PM) sabdfl: there's no prejudice to the 1 year nominates
(04:28:13 PM) sabdfl: other than that we want to get the rolling going
(04:28:29 PM) Hobbsee: does crimsun have time to it, due to new work commitments?
(04:28:41 PM) sabdfl: don't think motu will have long meetings
(04:28:46 PM) TheMuso: Hobbsee: He'd probably just say yes anyway. :p
(04:28:48 PM) mdz: dholbach: have all of those people volunteered to stand?
(04:28:51 PM) dholbach: Hobbsee: I talked with him about that. He was fine with that.
(04:28:53 PM) dholbach: mdz: yes
(04:28:57 PM) mdz: ok then
(04:29:07 PM) sabdfl: should be more about availability to review candidates for -dev
(04:29:17 PM) sabdfl: if we covered all the timezones i would be happiest
(04:29:29 PM) Hobbsee: dholbach: ah right
(04:29:29 PM) sabdfl: then people can find a member of the council, make their case, and get a +1 in their own timezone
(04:29:30 PM) dholbach: and I think that after a few meetings the MC will have other processes sorted out nicely as well
(04:29:43 PM) sabdfl: right, aim should NOT be CC-style meetings :-)
(04:29:59 PM) sabdfl: just a "wise elders" group that can approve good folks who are doing good work
(04:30:01 PM) Hobbsee: sabdfl: haha. just dont get any australian people to do it.
(04:30:28 PM) sabdfl: oh, we trust aussies despite heaps of experience
(04:30:45 PM) sabdfl: dholbach: thoughts?
(04:30:54 PM) mdz: ajmitch is in one of those ridiculous time zones, no?
(04:31:02 PM) mdz: should be a good spread
(04:31:04 PM) sabdfl: really need two in a timezone
(04:31:21 PM) sabdfl: so if there are other good candidates interested, i'd be happy to hear from them
(04:31:27 PM) sabdfl: and make appointments in mid-cycle
(04:31:31 PM) sabdfl: we don't need to wait a year
(04:31:38 PM) sabdfl: the motu council could be 7-9 people easily
(04:31:40 PM) sistpoty: well... I'm quite a night owl, so I rather hang around with ajmitch than with dholbach ;)
(04:31:48 PM) Hobbsee: mdz: NZ. and that's slightly better
(04:31:57 PM) Hobbsee: sabdfl: you may trust us, but 3am meetings suck.
(04:32:09 PM) sabdfl: dholbach could always also get a second opinion from a TB member
(04:32:18 PM) dholbach: I like the idea... what do other MOTUs think? Are you happy with the 1year/2year term rolling?
(04:32:21 PM) sabdfl: Hobbsee: idea would be to have only local folks in a meeting
(04:32:24 PM) mdz: it's valuable for the council to be spread out, so that hopefuls have someone to go to who will be around when they are
(04:32:29 PM) zul: im happy with that
(04:32:39 PM) sabdfl: so we could have one in sane hours for asia, with asian council members
(04:32:50 PM) sabdfl: not like TB where we try to have one meeting for the globe
(04:32:55 PM) sabdfl: i think this will be much more efficient
(04:32:59 PM) sabdfl: and easier on the motu council
(04:33:06 PM) sabdfl: will make it easier to get good folkstoparticipate
(04:33:12 PM) sabdfl: inthe council, and in -dev
(04:33:34 PM) LaserJock: dholbach: I'm fine with it I guess
(04:33:47 PM) sistpoty: it would certainly help creating -devs, but it might lead to confusion if the european meeting says x about a policy while the aussies say y
(04:34:08 PM) sistpoty: but I guess we could get that aligned somehow ;)
(04:34:27 PM) mdz: sistpoty: we should hope that the council members communicate with one another :-)
(04:34:31 PM) LaserJock: exactly, hopefully most policy discussion would involve ML though
(04:34:43 PM) dholbach: I'm sure the MC will manage. :-)
(04:35:16 PM) sabdfl: good point on the consistency front
(04:35:22 PM) dholbach: Ok, seems we have clarified "Clarify the process for the next appointment." too, so there's only "Clarify the process for communication between TB and MC for ubuntu-dev membership approval." left
(04:35:36 PM) sabdfl: we should look out for that since this is the first time we're creating something that we want to work as a parallel team
(04:36:32 PM) sabdfl: MOTU council should make a note for each candidate
(04:36:36 PM) sabdfl: on why they were approved
(04:36:45 PM) sabdfl: then TB should review those quickly in each meeting
(04:36:46 PM) mdz: dholbach: what I'd like to see is a writeup for each applicant, with an explanation of the council's decision, sent to the tech board
(04:36:56 PM) mdz: so that we can see how the guidelines have been applied
(04:37:16 PM) dholbach: to the mailing list? no meeting-like reporting? for other decision too?
(04:37:18 PM) sabdfl: if there's inconsistency we might ask for someone on TB to ack each decision
(04:37:22 PM) mdz: i.e., review the applicant's work against UbuntuDevelopers
(04:37:24 PM) sabdfl: but for the moment, let's trust that it will just work
(04:37:37 PM) sabdfl: mailing list or wiki page
(04:37:40 PM) mdz: so that there's a concise record of the process
(04:37:51 PM) sabdfl: should be a public list
(04:37:55 PM) sabdfl: the TB list is private
(04:38:10 PM) dholbach: a mail with a link to the wiki would work too, hm? :)
(04:38:19 PM) sabdfl: perfectly :-)
(04:38:26 PM) sabdfl: this just for approval cases
(04:38:36 PM) sabdfl: not for declines or "come back when you've done this"
(04:38:42 PM) dholbach: ok
(04:38:48 PM) dholbach: anything else regarding the MC? I'm happy
(04:38:55 PM) ajmitch: sounds good
(04:39:02 PM) sistpoty: we need the final acks still ;)
(04:39:06 PM) mdz: right, there's no need to justify deferring an application until a later date
(04:39:26 PM) sabdfl: +1 from me
(04:39:27 PM) mdz: the council should feel free to do so if it has doubts
(04:39:35 PM) mdz: without any embarrassment for those involved
(04:39:46 PM) mdz: I'm in agreement
(04:39:55 PM) mdz: dholbach: will you document those changes so we can sign off on the final document?
(04:39:56 PM) sabdfl: again, fomr my perspective, any two folks on the council should be sufficient
(04:40:02 PM) dholbach: mdz: yes
(04:40:10 PM) sabdfl: so it doesn't bottleneck on quorum across timezones
(04:40:13 PM) mdz: dholbach: we can do that by mail with the full TB, and not wait for another meeting
(04:40:29 PM) dholbach: alright
(04:40:33 PM) mdz: it should be considered by all members of the tech board, and I don't want it to block on meetings
(04:40:38 PM) mdz: thanks
(04:40:43 PM) dholbach: thank you
(04:41:00 PM) sabdfl: well done dholbach - this is a fantastic step
(04:41:02 PM) sabdfl: for the motu

(04:40:50 PM) mdz: next -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess
(04:41:17 PM) mdz: mdke asked that we consider this proposal to change the help interface in the desktop
(04:41:25 PM) dholbach: sabdfl: we all have big expectations :-)
(04:41:29 PM) mdz: I did an initial review and asked for some clarifications
(04:41:40 PM) mdz: which he seems to have made
(04:43:25 PM) mdz: I like the idea of replacing the submenu with a clearer, more navigable page
(04:43:33 PM) mdz: the current menu is confusing
(04:45:15 PM) mdz: I think the page layout could use some tweaking
(04:45:22 PM) mdz: but the basic idea seems sound
(04:45:26 PM) sabdfl: in principle i think this is a good change
(04:45:43 PM) sabdfl: the offer of community and commercial support will get more prominence by release
(04:46:00 PM) sabdfl: i expect that to be a little contentious
(04:46:13 PM) sabdfl: nevertheless, the new proposal is more attractive than the four submenus
(04:46:16 PM) sabdfl: and more sensible
(04:46:23 PM) sabdfl: mdke finally talked me round :-)
(04:47:39 PM) mdz: ok then
(04:47:46 PM) mdz: I'll mark it as approved, and document the feedback
(04:47:51 PM) mdz: we can fine-tune the page as needed
(04:48:36 PM) sabdfl: do we have full HTML capability on that page?
(04:48:38 PM) mdz: yes
(04:48:40 PM) sabdfl: or is it just Yelp?
(04:48:43 PM) mdz: it's Yelp
(04:48:46 PM) mdz: so FSVO "full"
(04:49:08 PM) sabdfl: hmm
(04:49:26 PM) sabdfl: will ask the folks working on the web site to work with mdke on the page
(04:49:32 PM) sabdfl: need to be able to present a classy picture
(04:49:35 PM) sabdfl: ok, that's all from me
(04:48:05 PM) mdz: next -- reportbug
(04:48:27 PM) mdz: we shipped reportbug in the default install in earlier releases
(04:49:57 PM) mdz: right, we stopped installing reportbug by default in edgy
(04:50:14 PM) mdz: because it doesn't support reporting bugs to launchpad, and other approaches were in development
(04:50:17 PM) mdz: we now have apport
(04:50:36 PM) mdz: which does what we wanted reportbug to do originally, and more
(04:50:58 PM) mdz: in the relevant bug report about this, it was suggested that having reportbug in main is confusing, since it's not our preferred bug reporting tool
(04:51:19 PM) mdz: since it was removed from desktop, the only reason it's still in main is that it's a dependency of dpkg-dev-el
(04:51:19 PM) ***ajmitch saw some brainstorming about rewriting reportbug to file directly into malone via the html forms
(04:51:28 PM) mdz: (emacs extensions for Debian package development)
(04:52:14 PM) mdz: we can a) drop dpkg-dev-el to universe, b) modify dpkg-dev-el not to depend on reportbug (and appropriate modifications so it's not needed), or c) leave it alone
(04:52:17 PM) ajmitch: reportbug is still useful to keep, but probably not for shipping on the cd
(04:52:36 PM) mdz: it isn't shipped on the CD
(04:53:16 PM) sabdfl: b seems the least intrusive
(04:53:24 PM) mdz: yes, though it does mean diverging the package from Debian
(04:53:34 PM) mdz: and thus more merge work
(04:53:35 PM) sabdfl: would they not accept the patch?
(04:55:40 PM) mdz: I don't think having reportbug in main is particularly confusing
(04:55:54 PM) mdz: and it's useful for reporting bugs to projects which use debbugs (including Debian)
(04:56:05 PM) sabdfl: the reportbug description could refer peopleto apport for standard ubuntu bug reporting?
(04:56:06 PM) mdz: but I don't have strong feelings either way, which is why I brought it here
(04:57:04 PM) mdz: this has been a long meeting already, though, and I'm happy to take it to email on technical-board@
(04:57:48 PM) sabdfl: i'm happy with b or c
(04:57:51 PM) sabdfl: mdz, your call
(04:57:59 PM) mdz: ok

(04:58:04 PM) mdz: any other BRIEF business? ;-)
(04:58:47 PM) sabdfl: done!
(04:58:49 PM) sabdfl: and well done
(04:58:59 PM) mdz: thanks, all
(04:59:03 PM) sabdfl: very pleased to see the MOTU reaching this point
(04:59:08 PM) sabdfl: welcome aboard, new devs
(04:59:13 PM) mdz: adjourned
(04:59:16 PM) mdke: (sorry for missing the meeting - was a long day)
(04:59:21 PM) mdke: thanks for discussing the spec anyway }}}