## page was renamed from MeetingLogs/MOTU 2007-01-22
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09:03	sistpoty	anyone here for motu-meeting?
09:04	LaserJock	so... who's running the show today?
09:04	ajmitch	you are
09:04	ajmitch	or sistpoty
09:04	ajmitch	there only seems to be a couple of people here
09:04	sistpoty	I'd prefer if LaserJock would do it ;)
09:04	sistpoty	(am just about eating dinner *g*)
09:07	LaserJock	well, I'll have to leave in less then an hour so we need to get with it
09:07	LaserJock	the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
09:08	ajmitch	ok, SRU process
09:08	ajmitch	sistpoty: you have the floor, let's get moving
009:08	sistpoty	has everybody followed the mails to -motu and read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Processes/SRURedone?
09:08	sistpoty	if not, please do so ;)
09:09	sistpoty	well... imo it takes way too much time until a update even hits proposed...
09:09	sistpoty	on the wiki-page, I've tried to make some proposals what can be fixed
09:10	sistpoty	but it might be a good thing if somebody *not* from the sru-team would make comments as well (as it's sometime hard to see problems if you're involved on one end)
09:10	sistpoty	so anyone some idea how to improve the sru-process?
09:11	LaserJock	well, the biggest problem, IMO, is how many people it has to pass
09:11	ajmitch	whoever is last to approve the package (in the SRU team) should upload it
09:11	LaserJock	ajmitch: +1
09:11	ajmitch	rather than it being approved & sitting there
09:11	sistpoty	ajmitch: if the last person is crimsun, we are already doing it that way ;)
09:11	ajmitch	good
09:11	LaserJock	we get delayed everytime it goes from  1 queue to another
09:11	ajmitch	but it doesn't always happen
09:11	ajmitch	eg libnss-ldap
09:12	sistpoty	ajmitch: so you propose to also upload stuff that have a motu as assignee?
09:12	ajmitch	yes
09:12	sistpoty	ah
09:12	ajmitch	it reduces delays
09:12	ajmitch	the person approving will already have the source there to look at
09:12	ajmitch	so uploading won't be a burden
09:12	LaserJock	I think as far as MOTU, having the last motu-sru voter upload and having a good system for displaying what's in -proposed
09:13	LaserJock	the biggest delay has been ubuntu-archive
09:13	sistpoty	LaserJock: yes
09:13	LaserJock	but that's not really in our control too much and sounds like it's getting worked on
09:13	sistpoty	LaserJock: FWIW Mithrandir is open to suggestions about reducing the checks ubuntu-archive is doing
09:13	sistpoty	would that be an option?
09:14	LaserJock	I think it would be good
09:14	LaserJock	I think he should basically just check versioning
09:14	LaserJock	and even that shouldn't be too bad if it goes through 3 motu-sru
09:14	sistpoty	+1 here as well, at least for -proposed
09:15	LaserJock	like I said in my email, getting into -proposed should be super easy
09:15	sistpoty	ok... any other opinions what we should improve for sru?
09:15	sistpoty	any objections to LaserJock proposal?
09:16	sistpoty	ok, if noone cries out loud, I'd call that a decision ;)
09:16	ajmitch	good
09:16	ajmitch	NEXT!
09:17	sistpoty	release schedules... me again
09:17	LaserJock	Release schedules (sistpoty)
09:17	ajmitch	can we decide on this now?
09:17	ajmitch	we have feature freeze on the 8th, what does this mean for universe?
09:17	ajmitch	last time we had universe upstream version freeze at beta freeze (iirc)
09:18	sistpoty	ajmitch: imo we should decide now... we're overdue to get them listed on feistyreleaseschedule
09:18	ajmitch	and no new packages at feature freeze
09:18	ajmitch	which meant everything on REVU had to be in by FF
09:18	sistpoty	there was one mail from crimsun with pretty good proposals for dates... I'll look that one up
09:18	LaserJock	ok, dholbach's original proposal was keeping UVF same as Main and FF one week after Main FF
09:18	ajmitch	LaserJock: that can't be right
09:19	ajmitch	UVF is on the same day as feature freeze
09:19	ajmitch	I didn't think we'd have such an early UVF
=== ajmitch notes that this is related to the universe QA point
09:19	LaserJock	well, I swear UVF and FF weren't the same day but that's what the wiki page says
09:20	ajmitch	right
09:20	ajmitch	for edgy, we had UVF & no new packages at beta freeze
09:20	LaserJock	March 15th in this case
09:20	ajmitch	we also had an active UVF team that could do approvals
09:20	sistpoty	ah... found the mail: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2006-December/001103.html
09:20	ajmitch	which needs to be sorted
09:21	LaserJock	I seriously think it depends on how hard the freeze is going to be
09:21	LaserJock	in Edgy we had to get approval for *every* upload after Beta Freeze didn't we?
09:22	sistpoty	that would slowed us down pretty much, right?
09:22	LaserJock	yeah
09:23	LaserJock	if we are going to have that hard of a freeze I'd like to delay it
09:23	LaserJock	if UVF and FF mean just that I'm fine
09:23	LaserJock	but if UVF/FF effectively cut off any more development I'm not so fine
09:23	sistpoty	well... for UVF it might be good to know what debian is/will be doing... ajmitch?
09:25	ajmitch	sistpoty: hah
09:25	ajmitch	funny
09:25	ajmitch	"etch will release"
09:25	ajmitch	no firm dates yet, I heard rumours of mid-feb
09:26	LaserJock	it seems like etch will be too late for us to re-merge all the new upstreams that are likely to hit unstable
09:26	sistpoty	ajmitch: oh, nice... we should put UVF definitely before the release of etch
09:26	ajmitch	LaserJock: no, we did *not* need approval for every upload after beta freeze, but after RC
09:26	LaserJock	ah RC
09:26	ajmitch	it was only for a week or two
09:26	ajmitch	not 5-6 weeks
09:27	LaserJock	well, it was when I was going to upload some bug fixes I think
09:27	sistpoty	ok, let's go over the unique dates... UVF
09:28	LaserJock	I think we should keep UVF with Main
09:28	sistpoty	is Feb 8 okay, sooner or later?
09:28	sistpoty	anyone else?
=== ajmitch doesn't like it, but oh well
09:28	ajmitch	we need to freeze some time
09:28	LaserJock	ajmitch: what you prefer?
09:28	sistpoty	hehe
=== tsmithe doesn't have enough experience to have an opinion
09:29	LaserJock	we need to get merges done and out the door
09:29	ajmitch	yes
09:29	ajmitch	it just means approval for everything new after that
09:29	ajmitch	& also clearing up REVU by the 8th
09:29	LaserJock	yes
09:29	LaserJock	no
09:29	LaserJock	that's FF
09:29	sistpoty	ajmitch: nope... UVF != FF
09:29	LaserJock	I propose FF be later
09:29	sistpoty	LaserJock: same here
09:29	LaserJock	UVF same to get merges done and get sort of settled in
09:29	LaserJock	and be consistent with Main
09:30	LaserJock	before etch release
09:30	LaserJock	but once merges are done and out of the way
09:30	LaserJock	hit REVU and get all the new crack in
09:30	ajmitch	it'll give us a few weeks to work on bugs
09:30	geser	UVF = no new upstream version (only with approval) but new revisions don't need an approval?
09:30	sistpoty	geser: only new upstream versions
09:30	LaserJock	yes, "upstream" in this case is upstream upstream
09:31	sistpoty	*g*
09:31	LaserJock	new Debian revisions are ok
09:31	sistpoty	ok... let's vote so that we can move on
09:31	sistpoty	Feb 8?
09:31	sistpoty	+1
09:31	LaserJock	+1
09:31	sistpoty	(please clearly vote with -1 if you are against it)
09:31	geser	for FF or UVF?
09:32	LaserJock	UVF
09:32	sistpoty	geser: UVF
09:32	geser	+1
09:32	sistpoty	3
09:32	sistpoty	2
09:32	sistpoty	1
09:32	sistpoty	ok, accepted
09:32	sistpoty	next: FF
09:33	sistpoty	FF: march 1st? sooner or later?
09:33	ajmitch	sooner
09:33	sistpoty	ajmitch: name a date please ;=
09:33	sistpoty	)
09:33	LaserJock	really?
09:33	ajmitch	feb 22
09:34	ajmitch	UVF+2 weeks
09:34	ajmitch	depends on how much time you want people to spend reviewing vs bug fixing
09:34	sistpoty	if we do one or two revu sprints during that time, might be ok
09:34	LaserJock	yeah
09:34	LaserJock	that's what I was just thinking
09:34	ajmitch	and announce it well
09:34	LaserJock	yes
09:34	ajmitch	so that people know there's a deadline
=== ScottK likes revu sprints.
09:35	bddebian	sistpoty: :)
09:35	sistpoty	ok, votes please for feb 22
09:35	sistpoty	FF
09:35	sistpoty	+1 here
09:35	ajmitch	so you'd have 1 month from now until universe FF
09:35	LaserJock	+1
09:35	ajmitch	+1
09:35	geser	+1
09:35	LaserJock	that gives us 3 weeks after FF before Beta Freeze
09:36	ajmitch	hopefully people don't yell too loudly for us deciding on dates ;)
09:36	sistpoty	ok... 3
09:36	sistpoty	2
09:36	sistpoty	1
09:36	ajmitch	LaserJock: you think that's too long?
09:36	sistpoty	done...
09:36	ajmitch	hm ok
09:36	LaserJock	ajmitch: no, I'm thinking we will need time for QA and upgrade testing
09:36	LaserJock	we should try to be pretty locked down *before* Beta
09:36	ajmitch	we've done badly on that in the past
09:37	sistpoty	ajmitch: the dates should have been decided on the list a long time ago... but these things never work without MC ;)
09:37	ajmitch	hence the QA topic coming up :)
09:37	ajmitch	sistpoty: of course
09:37	ajmitch	sistpoty: easier to ask forgiveness than permission ;)
09:37	LaserJock	sistpoty: can you please edit the release schedule so we can get those "written in stone"?
09:37	geser	is universe freeze on beta freeze?
09:37	ajmitch	geser: no
09:37	sistpoty	LaserJock: will do after the meeting ;)
09:37	LaserJock	geser: there is no universe freeze
09:38	ajmitch	none decided yet, anyway
09:38	sistpoty	universe freeze used to be FF + UVF combined
09:38	geser	LaserJock: in edgy we had one
09:38	ajmitch	the hard freeze didn't work so well for edgy
09:38	ajmitch	noone uploaded bug fixes
09:38	LaserJock	geser: as sistpoty said Universe Freeze was just FF+UVF
09:38	LaserJock	geser: it was done because the Edgy cycle was short
09:38	geser	so we can upload fixes till feisty release?
09:39	LaserJock	we have no freeze for fixes
09:39	LaserJock	as far as I can see
09:39	ajmitch	until the buildds & upload queue is set to manual
09:39	ajmitch	which is a couple of days before release
09:39	sistpoty	yes...
09:39	sistpoty	any more discussion needed for freeze dates? did I miss s.th.?
09:40	LaserJock	I don't think so, we just needed to rubber stamp it
09:40	sistpoty	ok, then let's move one, agreed?
09:40	LaserJock	can I inject a quick meeting item?
09:40	sistpoty	LaserJock: sure
09:40	LaserJock	At the end of last week I had a talk with kiko (LP dev)
09:41	LaserJock	and he expressed a desire for MOTU to have better representation with LP
09:41	LaserJock	and to work on making sure LP meets the MOTU's needs
09:41	LaserJock	to do this he wanted a MOTU representitive to work with the LP devs
09:42	LaserJock	to help prioritize bugs
09:42	LaserJock	and get feedback from MOTU and turn it into specific and concrete bug reports that they can work on
09:42	ajmitch	(bugs in the launchpad code, not universe bugs)
09:42	LaserJock	yes
09:42	LaserJock	sorry
09:43	sistpoty	sounds great :)
09:43	LaserJock	so, if there aren't any objections, I will take on this role
=== ajmitch agrees
09:43	sistpoty	hehe, I just wanted to propose you, LaserJock ;)
09:43	sistpoty	+1
09:43	ajmitch	thanks for volunteering :)
09:43	LaserJock	and will probably be meeting with the LP team (in some fashion) on a weekly basis
09:43	sistpoty	great!
09:43	LaserJock	I've started trawling through Malone bugs
09:43	LaserJock	looking at bugs that seem important to MOTU
09:44	LaserJock	and in fact I found a few of our long standing complaints are long standing bugs in Malone
09:44	bddebian	Yeah :-(
09:44	LaserJock	I will probably be using a special tag to mark certain bugs as MOTU priorities
09:45	Adri2000	the ability to target a bug for a release (for a SRU) in malone, currently only core-devs can do that
09:45	sistpoty	LaserJock: I'll have some things of LP as well... I'll write you a mail
09:45	LaserJock	so, if you have things that need to be fixed in LP (for MOTU work) please let me know
09:45	sistpoty	Adri2000: yep... would be really handy to get that fixed, at least for -sru / motu-swat
09:46	LaserJock	once I get things worked out with the LP guys I'll write an email to -motu explaining things further
09:46	LaserJock	but I really want to thank kiko for reaching out to MOTU
09:46	sistpoty	yay!
09:46	LaserJock	this was a really good idea on his part
09:46	LaserJock	and has commited to giving MOTU what it needs if possible
09:46	bddebian	Do we already have a policy on what really makes good candidates for backports?
09:47	LaserJock	anyway, that's it from me on that topic
09:47	ajmitch	bddebian: add it to the meeting agenda :)
09:47	LaserJock	and I have to run to try to convince 300 undergrads to by goggles from me ;-) I'll be back in ~15 min
09:47	ajmitch	bye :)
09:47	sistpoty	LaserJock: cya motu-lp-coordinator ;)
09:48	bddebian	Heh, later LaserJock
=== ajmitch may or may not be around for the qa topic
09:48	sistpoty	ajmitch: how about doing it now?
=== ajmitch shrugs
09:48	ajmitch	ok, first up, we suck at QA
09:48	ajmitch	edgy was a shambles
09:48	ajmitch	we need to fix this
09:49	ajmitch	one reason I wanted an early freeze date, so that we have plenty of time for fixing bugs
09:50	ajmitch	I want us to have weekly targets of  things to do (unmet deps, critical bugs, etc), which will require some coordination with the bug squad
09:50	sistpoty	sounds great
09:50	ajmitch	and I also want to try & get a list of bugs that are fixed in debian by new upstream versions that we don't have in ubuntu
09:50	ajmitch	since we find out a few weeks after release about RC bugs that missed out on UVF by a day or so
09:51	ajmitch	we've had the autoimporter shut off for so long that there may be many of these
09:51	ajmitch	any other suggestions for what we need to do to make feisty universe better?
09:51	sistpoty	hm... I even needed to file sync requests for two security bugs
09:51	geser	we need also check for CVE fixed in unstable
09:51	ajmitch	yep
09:52	ajmitch	I can trawl the debian BTS via the LDAP gateway
09:52	ajmitch	but I need to get the version info on the debian bugs
09:52	sistpoty	ajmitch: cool
09:53	ajmitch	so, getting a list of packages that are older than in debian, getting a list of closed bugs, seeing what bugs were fixed in those versions we don't have
09:53	sistpoty	ajmitch: will you take leadership for universe-qa?
09:53	ajmitch	who wants to try & do some weekly task lists (council job, i know)
09:53	ajmitch	sure
09:53	sistpoty	ajmitch: cool, would be awesome
=== ajmitch grabs the whip
09:54	ajmitch	give me suggestions of what we need to fix
09:54	ajmitch	& how we do testing (upgrade & install testing, etc)
09:55	sistpoty	ajmitch: imo the most important thing is to try to motivate people to follow at least *some* task lists, instead of everybody working on something different
09:55	ajmitch	yep
09:55	sistpoty	which I guess will be the hardest part as well ;)
09:55	ajmitch	heh
09:55	geser	we should also check that packages build on all archs
09:56	ajmitch	that should come under full archive rebuild testing
09:56	sistpoty	ajmitch: will that be done this time?
09:56	ajmitch	I hope so
09:56	ajmitch	I'll find out
09:57	geser	maybe we could ask the same person who did it the last time
09:57	sistpoty	ajmitch: iirc lucas did archive rebuilds for unstable, didn't he? maybe he could set s.th. up for feisty as well? (if we cannot do it officially)
09:57	ajmitch	yes, he did
09:57	ajmitch	imbrandon can probably do some with his new toys
09:58	geser	but this time with enough time for fixes
09:58	sistpoty	great
09:58	sistpoty	we should also try to fix as many unmet deps as possible... many sru's are due to unmet deps
09:59	sistpoty	(with really easy fixes!)
09:59	keescook	I'd love to get involved in some full rebuilds too; I'd like to test some toolchain changes at some point (separate from the feisty release stuff, obviously)
09:59	geser	what about packages that failed building on upload but build now?
09:59	ajmitch	geser: certainly, I was filing a few bugs with fabbione after a full rebuild on sparc
09:59	ajmitch	geser: we get the admins to give them back to the buildds
09:59	ajmitch	keescook: excellent
10:00	sistpoty	ajmitch: is there a procedure to do the give-back? (my pings to lamont don't seem to have any impact)
10:00	ajmitch	sistpoty: lamont hasn't done that for ages
10:00	lamont`	ajmitch: well, I can now... but yeah
10:00	ajmitch	unless he's been helping out recently
10:00	geser	sistpoty: ask Mithrandir for give-backs
10:01	geser	ajmitch: exists a list of those packages that need a look (because it failed building)?
10:01	ajmitch	geser: there should be, if not, we'll get one
10:01	ajmitch	mails are sent out on build failures now as well
10:01	ajmitch	& we can officially beg the LP guys now
10:02	ajmitch	anything else for QA that we need to cover now?
10:02	persia	I'd like to see removal of all NBS in universe.  Some install and fail for known reasons.
10:02	ajmitch	we also need someone to do minutes of the meeting, please
10:03	sistpoty	I can do the minutes...
10:03	ajmitch	persia: there's probably a lot we could cull from universe because they won't work without a lot of effort
10:03	ajmitch	sistpoty: thanks
10:04	ajmitch	this topic has sort of covered the needed todo lists as well
10:04	sistpoty	ok
10:04	ajmitch	unmet deps, bugs fixed in debian, critical/important bugs on malone, etc
10:04	ajmitch	sistpoty: you want to talk about translations soon?
10:05	sistpoty	erm... anyone got a clue about translations?
10:05	ajmitch	nope
10:05	sistpoty	I actually only set it as topic, since we got a mail on -motu
10:05	ajmitch	we'd need to talk to carlos
10:06	sistpoty	ok, then let's defer the item... anyone volunteering to contact carlos about it?
=== sistpoty is a little bit low on time atm :/
10:07	persia	I lurked on a conversation between seb128 and carlos.  Translations was related to a spec that was rejected, and needs revision (although I can't find the URL now).
10:08	ajmitch	persia: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/language-packs-for-universe ?
10:09	persia	ajmitch: Yep, that's it.  The rejection was due to the volume and conflicts due to translations upstream vs. translations locally.
10:07	ajmitch	then it's MOTU school
10:07	ajmitch	we've been wanting to revive this for awhile, but it takes a reasonable about of time
10:08	sistpoty	hm... maybe it might make sense to do short (as in very short) lessons prior to a new task (e.g. unmet deps) being the current one
10:09	ajmitch	sistpoty: probably a good idea, and link to the school session on the task lists
10:09	sistpoty	yes
10:10	ajmitch	so we just need a call for volunteers for school sessions, and we can go for it ;)
10:10	ajmitch	sistpoty: great, that was the last topic, we can go home ;)
10:10	sistpoty	ajmitch: date of next motu-meeting?
10:10	sistpoty	do we want to decide now or defer to mailing list?
10:11	LaserJock	for what? next meeting?
10:11	sistpoty	LaserJock: yes
10:11	ajmitch	now + 3 weeks, exact date to be decided on list?
10:11	LaserJock	I think we should at least have a proposal right now
10:11	LaserJock	I think it should be the week after the MOTU Council get's finalized
10:11	ajmitch	make it a regular thing
10:11	sistpoty	+3 weeks sounds good
10:11	LaserJock	I can dream can't I? ;-)
10:12	sistpoty	maybe we should rotate the time to cover different tz's?
10:12	ajmitch	sistpoty: good idea
10:12	ajmitch	sistpoty: a meeting every 3-4 weeks could be a good thing
10:12	sistpoty	ajmitch: agreed
10:12	ajmitch	let people bring up their complaints
10:12	LaserJock	yes
10:12	LaserJock	I think if we have regular reports as well it will help
10:13	ajmitch	yep
10:13	LaserJock	getting people going is what we need right now
10:13	sistpoty	wed, Feb 14?
10:13	sistpoty	let's say 8.00 UTC?
10:13	ajmitch	sistpoty: sure, 1 week before FF
=== ajmitch might be a little late for that, but it should work
10:14	sistpoty	ok, anyone against that date?
10:14	ajmitch	I think I'll be finished at practice at about 7:30UTC :)
10:14	ajmitch	ah sorry, that's wednesday, i have nothing on that day
10:14	sistpoty	hehe... and I need to get up early (before noon)
10:14	ajmitch	unless I get back to archery practice :)
10:14	LaserJock	well, that's midnight for me, but better than 10:00UTC
10:14	ajmitch	LaserJock: alright
10:15	LaserJock	we should rotate times
10:15	ajmitch	no objections?
10:15	sistpoty	no
10:15	LaserJock	I guess, with as many people as we have
10:15	LaserJock	not from me
10:15	ajmitch	great
10:15	LaserJock	we can hash it out on the ML if it doesn't work for people
10:15	sistpoty	ok, then thanks everyone for the meeting...
10:15	ajmitch	it is decided
10:15	LaserJock	I just think it's better to have a propasal, then work from there
10:16	ajmitch	thanks sistpoty for getting it running
10:16	sistpoty	np
10:16	ajmitch	& LaserJock
10:16	sistpoty	t'was small but very productive imo :)
10:16	LaserJock	sistpoty: thank you a lot for getting things going
10:16	LaserJock	and the REVU Reports are great
10:16	sistpoty	LaserJock: no problem... if I were that good with my thesis as well *g*
10:16	LaserJock	I meant, SRU Reports
}}}