{{{ 11:01 kjcole Showtime? 11:01 LaserJock should be 11:02 mdke yeah, who is around? 11:02 mdke <-- Matthew East === kjcole is Kevin Cole === LaserJock is Jordan Mantha === rob is lurking === bustacap is present 11:03 mdke cool === jeffsch i'm here 11:03 mdke ah hey jeffsch 11:03 mdke let's kick off with your item :) 11:04 jeffsch ok 11:04 mdke agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda 11:04 mdke jeffsch, do you want to go ahead and outline your proposal? 11:04 jeffsch C is locale for ANSI C programs 11:05 jeffsch doc processing tools don't always understand the C locale 11:05 jeffsch we should use the "en" locale as our default 11:05 bustacap I think the "C" locale extends beyond ANSI C programs.. 11:05 jeffsch yeah, into GNOME docs 11:05 bustacap Solaris CDE uses "C" everywhere for it's desktop icons, etc.. 11:06 mdke jeffsch, what are the advantages/disadvantages? === robotgeek [n=robotgee@62.240.70.121] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:06 bustacap "C" is the old school version of default.. 11:06 Mithrandir I'm semi-around, but not part of the docteam. Tollef Fog Heen 11:06 mdke evening robotgeek, we're just on the first agenda item === robotgeek is Venkat Raghavan === Burgwork is Corey Burger 11:06 jeffsch advantage is having en for use in processing tools 11:07 Mithrandir C doesn't give you UTF8 support, for instance. 11:07 jeffsch xsltproc doesn't know C locale, but will use en as fallover 11:07 mdke don't our processing tools use en anyway? 11:07 mdke as fallback? 11:07 jeffsch other tools choke on C locale 11:08 bustacap is there a way to move to it all to "en" and symlink C -> en ? 11:08 jeffsch mdke: yeah, that's what those warnings are when building docs 11:08 bustacap that's the standard practice.. 11:08 bustacap that should cover both basis.. 11:08 jeffsch svn can't do symlinks, iirc 11:08 bustacap haha yeah.. 11:08 mdke so the disadvantages? 11:08 bustacap I was talking about when it is installed.. Are there any advantages to "C" (assuming one has control 11:09 kjcole over the whole universe of docs -- i.e. not worrying about what Solaris or anyone else does)? 11:09 Mithrandir kjcole: it's a fallback which any language will fall back to if their normal language/locale isn't available. 11:10 mdke if we move to en, do we lose that fallback? 11:10 jeffsch a C program uses the C locale until it calls setlocale() 11:10 jeffsch mdke: no 11:10 mdke ok, so any disadvantages you know? 11:10 jeffsch yeah, the transition from one to the other 11:11 mdke shoot 11:11 mdke what does it take? 11:11 jeffsch mostly just changing C to en everywhere it occurs it seems slightly unclear to me what exactly do you mean 11:11 Mithrandir by moving from C to en. Do you mean changing the default language code of the English documentation from C to en or something else? 11:11 jeffsch including in the omf files 11:11 Mithrandir (like, changing the LANG setting in the build environment) 11:12 jeffsch Mithrandir: changing 11:12 jeffsch to 11:12 Mithrandir so the former, then. 11:12 jeffsch yeah 11:13 robotgeek a bash script can do that? 11:13 mdke and the place the docs are installed would have to change too? 11:13 jeffsch yeah, anything in a C folder would be in an en folder 11:14 Mithrandir you'd have to make sure that "en" would be fallen back to if localised docs weren't available. 11:14 bustacap what are the processing tools that are disadvantaged by the current setup? 11:15 jeffsch xsltproc shows a warning that it does not understand C, and is using en instead 11:15 jeffsch the last time i used java tools, (about a year ago) they choked on C locale I have and in the packaging guide. Is that not C then? 11:15 jeffsch &language resolves to C in global.ent 11:16 LaserJock so why is there? 11:16 jeffsch dunno 11:16 LaserJock I just stole it from the server guide I think 11:16 mdke jeffsch, how long do you estimate the transition would take, and do you envisage doing it before dapper? 11:17 jeffsch it took me about an hour to test it on desktop guide and server guide on my wc 11:17 jeffsch included changing and building, and fixing places i forgot 11:17 mdke did you build a package and test? 11:18 jeffsch no 11:18 mdke would there be likely to be any problems? 11:18 jeffsch scrollkeeper omf files would need to be changed 11:18 mdke yes, and debian/install 11:18 mdke Mithrandir, any idea if this would produce bugs? can we go ahead and do it safely pre-dapper you think? 11:19 mdke dholbach, your opinion too would be awesome, if you are around 11:19 jeffsch it should be similar to adding anyother locale such as fr 11:19 Mithrandir mdke: I don't know scrollkeeper well enough. Try it on a localised install and see what blows up? 11:19 mdke ok 11:20 mdke for me, it sounds fine, if jeffsch can test it a little bit and commit, no problems here 11:20 bustacap the "C" fallback should be the main thing to test 11:20 mdke yeah ok, i'll commit some stuff in the next day or so... i'll 11:21 jeffsch keep the images in the C folder though to keep the bandwith impact lower 11:21 mdke svn mv shouldn't impact on bandwidth i don't think 11:22 mdke jeffsch, could you try a package before committing? 11:22 jeffsch i was thinking having the two side by side for testing 11:22 mdke ah 11:22 jeffsch i would have to learn packaging, so it would take another day or so, if i find the time 11:22 Mithrandir if you move stuff, move it properly and don't care about bandwidth impact. 11:23 jeffsch ok 11:23 mdke jeffsch, just look in debian/install and change the values, it's pretty obvious this might need to be fixed by somebody who comes along 11:23 Mithrandir in a year or two and the bandwidth you save today will then just cause headaches then. 11:23 jeffsch yeah 11:24 mdke ok cool 11:24 mdke any more on this item? 11:25 jeffsch nope. i'll test and commit and see what happens 11:25 mdke great 11:25 mdke next item is the rearranging of the desktopguide meeting 11:26 jeffsch hopefully by monday 11:26 mdke i was hoping for a meeting on the desktopguide by those who are likely to contribute 11:27 mdke Madpilot isn't here right now 11:27 mdke perhaps we can coordinate a quick meeting via the mailing list? 11:27 bustacap I am looking at filling in a few of the TODO sections.. 11:27 robotgeek does it count for the Kubuntu too, right? 11:27 mdke robotgeek, sure 11:28 robotgeek oaky, if the rest of the ppl aren't here, it may be best to do this by mailing list/launchpad poll 11:28 bustacap yep 11:28 mdke last item then, I think 11:28 robotgeek scratch the poll, it's only going to be 5 ppl or so :) 11:28 mdke over to you bustacap 11:29 bustacap mdke, I am not too sure if there are many UDSF folk in the room.. 11:29 robotgeek manicka ping 11:29 bustacap it was a little short notice.. 11:29 mdke was there something you wanted to raise anyhow? 11:29 bustacap yeah sure.. at the 'next' meeting, we talk with some senior members 11:30 bustacap of UDSF and talk about getting new help documents included into the offical docs rather than being posted in the forums.. 11:31 bustacap new HowTo can be originally created into the Wiki 11:31 bustacap and new FAQs could be inserted into the starter guide.. 11:31 bustacap the HowTos should be the easier of the two.. 11:32 bustacap leaving the forum as a pure helpdesk service 11:32 bustacap which it is good at 11:32 mdke ok that is quite a complicated discussion. You'll need to include the forum administrators 11:32 bustacap yeah.. 11:32 bustacap most of the UDSF team are the forum admins, but yes we do need them as well.. 11:32 LaserJock do the UDSF guys want to do that? 11:32 mdke bustacap, no the admins are different 11:33 bustacap LaserJock, they are all for copying existing docs into the wiki (or somebody else copying) 11:33 bustacap but I am talking about new docs.. === bshumate [n=bshumate@ubuntu/member/bshumate] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:34 bustacap the existing docs would take a long time.. LaserJock, i think it will be a long road. The first road 11:34 mdke is trying to convince the wiki and UDSF to merge, let alone get them to scrap the howto section in the forum 11:34 mdke but it would be great to have the wiki and forums complementing each other 11:34 LaserJock that's what I'm talking about. I didn't get the impression that they were closing the UDSF or anything 11:34 mdke no, indeed the wiki is already filled with great info, I feel that 11:35 bustacap there could be already great amounts of unneccessary duplication 11:35 Burgwork USDF is mostly a lost cause 11:35 LaserJock It sounded more like the doc team was welcome to take there info 11:35 Burgwork we need to publicize the wiki more 11:35 bustacap I agree on the need to promote the wiki much more in the forums 11:35 robotgeek +1 that's where my main point is stemming from - there is 11:36 bustacap very little mention of the wikis in forum posts from the "helpdesk teams" 11:36 bustacap the guys who answer the most questions.. 11:36 robotgeek bustacap: i think azz on the forums mentioned that 11:36 mdke there is a "how to post to the wiki" guide as a sticky in the howto section 11:37 bustacap FYI, an invite was sent out to have the UDSF guys in attendance for this meeting.. 11:37 Burgwork I spoke to them extensively after the last CC meeting 11:37 bustacap what was the outcome Burgwork? 11:38 Burgwork we agreed to disagree about goals and left it at that I haven't spent much time in the forums. Any sense of 11:38 kjcole the audience percentage that understands the "living" nature of the wikis? 11:38 Burgwork kjcole, most are probably not even aware of the wiki 11:38 mdke bustacap, there is a bug link at the top 11:38 mdke bug/big === Bonzodog [n=bonzodog@unaffiliated/bonzodog] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 11:39 kjcole Burgwork, I meant the concept, not any specific wiki. 11:39 mdke bustacap/burgwork 11:39 Burgwork mdke, links to not make awareness 11:39 mdke Burgwork, no, unless people click. But sometimes they do 11:39 Burgwork kjcole, first they have to aware it exists, and then we can start thinking about having them edit it I spoke to manicka at length last night as well Burgwork, 11:40 bustacap but I think there needs to be a set meeting with fair numbers of the ubuntu-doc team, the forum admins and the UDSF team instead of 1-on-3 conversations.. 11:40 rob sorry, what is UDSF? 11:40 mdke bustacap, ok you can take the lead on organising it 11:40 mdke rob, the gwos wiki 11:40 rob ah === rob reserves comment 11:41 bustacap mdke, yes, they have a wiki link to make the forums blend in with the rest of the official ubuntu pages.. The few topics that I've looked at in the forum often end 11:41 kjcole up being umpteen screens worth of corrections and updates to "good" answers (along with lots of little "Thank you. It worked." responses.) 11:41 kjcole They'd really benefit from being wiki'd. 11:41 bustacap kjcole, I like seeing 'thank you' and 'it worked' in forums when I am searching for a solution 11:42 bustacap yes, wikis for documentation - forums for help 11:42 mdke i like those wiki pages that say "discuss this guide [forumlink here] " 11:42 bustacap mdke ++ 11:42 kjcole bustacap, yeah, it's nice. I wasn't saying get rid of that. 11:43 bustacap that should be used more often in the more important wiki pages 11:43 bustacap I will look at trying to organise a meeting between the three interested parties in the near future.. 11:43 mdke ok to draw some conclusions, bustacap, you're going to organise a meeting? 11:43 mdke cool 11:43 bustacap I don't know who to contact for the forum administrators 11:44 mdke bustacap, you can find them on the forum 11:44 bustacap I mean the active senior admins.. 11:44 mdke there is a list 11:44 robotgeek could we have a wiki article discussion section on the forums? 11:45 bustacap "View Forum Leaders" 11:45 mdke some kinda of automatic thing would be nice, in the future 11:45 bustacap hah, must have missed that link last night.. 11:45 Burgwork I worry about splitting the forums up too much one thing that somewhat bugs me (and maybe it's 11:46 LaserJock understandable) is that some of the forum admin/mods put UDSF in there signatures but not the Ubuntu wiki I just seems to me that there isn't that much support for 11:47 LaserJock the Ubuntu wiki from within the forums and I don't understand why 11:47 robotgeek LaserJock: the explanation to that apparently is that they know the answer on UDSF, but not in the Ubuntu wiki 11:47 LaserJock robotgeek: but those are just general advertisements basically 11:47 mdke there are some social barriers that we can eventually hope to break down 11:47 bustacap Burgwork, what do you mean by splitting up? 11:48 Burgwork bustacap, having many small forums is bad and balkanizes where people look for help 11:48 mdke yeah, a "wiki article" section wouldn't work I don't think yes, there seems to be a breakaway from the official 11:48 bustacap community, which is bad, we don't want to become another RedHat.. 11:49 Burgwork there are a number of issues with the forums divide and this is just one manifestation 11:49 mdke absolutely 11:49 bustacap sure 11:49 mdke I don't think we can solve it, but meetings can't hurt === Burgwork is busy working through another with the CC yes, mdke, just making some progress and airing any 11:50 bustacap issues with all major players present together in the same room should be a good start 11:50 robotgeek we don't really need a section, i guess. Wiki:WikiWord or something referencing back to the wiki would work 11:50 mdke ok, I'm off to bed now 11:50 bustacap sweet, thanks mdke 11:50 robotgeek later mdke === jeffsch [n=jeff@216.210.98.99] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["gone] === bustacap [n=bustacap@203-206-46-153.dyn.iinet.net.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] before I go, Burgwork and me and henrik have worked on 11:51 mdke the BetterWikiDocs spec, please feel free to have a look and comment 11:52 robotgeek it is very nice, aesthetically :) 11:53 mdke ok -> bed }}}