{{{
05:00	dholbach	Hi everybody!
05:01	dholbach	can everybody, who is here for the Desktop Team meeting state their name?
=== dholbach is Daniel Holbach
05:01	Nafallo	ChristianBjlevik
=== seb128 is Sebastien Bacher
05:01	dholbach	i see
05:02	dholbach	that gives the meeting a more cozy atmosphere
05:02	dholbach	shall we wait a minute or two? :)
=== Simira [n=rpGirl@c51008D91.inet.catch.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
=== slomo is Sebastian Drge
=== ogra is OliverGrawert
05:02	dholbach	hi Simira
05:02	dholbach	hub excuses himself
05:02	Simira	hi there. I seemed to have dropped into a meeting
05:02	ogra	where is our jdub ?
05:03	dholbach	Simira: we were just about to start, interested in the desktop team meeting?
05:03	dholbach	ogra: good question - some of us ask that ourselves for some days now ;)
05:03	seb128	ogra: probably sleeping
05:03	Simira	dholbach : not really, I'm on a workshop with another job ;)
05:03	seb128	I've spoken with him on IRC 2 days ago
05:03	seb128	he still have no DSL
05:03	dholbach	Simira: i see
=== MarioMeyer is Mario Meyer
05:03	ogra	dholbach, i know he got a new DSL line which was delayed ... but thats a info from beginning of last week
05:04	dholbach	ok
=== lllmanulll is Manu Cornet
=== dholbach knows those problems
05:04	ogra	who doesnt :)
05:04	dholbach	did vuntz say anything? :)
05:04	seb128	vuntz: ping
05:04	dholbach	he just said, he wanted to have the announce on the fridge ;)
05:04	dholbach	maybe that's why he didnt turn up :)
05:05	dholbach	ok... let's get going anyways
05:05	dholbach	seb128 and i were wondering, how we can put more life into the desktop team
05:06	dholbach	while the announce ot the team itself was a success (look at the bunch of people, and especially upstream people that are in the channel), we thought we might promote the idea a bit more
05:06	dholbach	we started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/MeetingIdeas with a bunch of ideas
05:07	dholbach	i personally felt, that we might need a bit more of organisation and places to point people to, where they could help out, since the observation "seb128 does GNOME all alone" is kind of wrong ;)
05:07	dholbach	i hope we can all agree on that :)
05:08	seb128	yeah
05:08	Nafallo	sure, it's seb128 and dholbach now ;-)
05:08	seb128	lol
05:08	dholbach	haha :)
05:08	MarioMeyer	lol
05:08	seb128	one to break stuff, the other one to fix
05:08	Nafallo	lol
05:08	seb128	and we switch every week :p
05:08	dholbach	we switch every day to keep it exciting
05:08	dholbach	or well... :)
05:08	seb128	;)
05:09	dholbach	do you have any thoughts on this?
05:09	ogra	i think the prob is that the desktop is in main ...
05:09	Nafallo	better start making random switches for even more excitement :-)
05:09	dholbach	initiatives we could start, things you'd expect from the team, ...
05:09	seb128	and?
05:09	ogra	its not as easy as getting your hands on universe packages
05:09	dholbach	ogra:  do you think it'd help to state clearly, that we're happy to sponsor uploads until people are ready for main?
05:09	ogra	people wont just jump on packages that are in main like they do for universe packages
05:10	seb128	you can bug triage, have nice idea, package new stuff, send patches, do artwork (hey lllmanulll), etc
05:10	ogra	dholbach, absolutely
05:10	dholbach	ogra: ok, maybe we should make that clearer
05:10	lllmanulll	Hey :)
05:10	ogra	dholbach, not clearer, but more public .... shout it out to the world :)
=== dholbach makes a note :)
05:11	lllmanulll	I'll ask you guys about the stuff I did yesterday in a while, if there's nothing else to talk about :p
05:11	dholbach	i thought, that maybe with a bit more of organisation (like description of workflow, ie: what to do, when upgrading a package, ...) might help with that too (to lower the entry point)
=== vuntz_ [n=vuntz@volin.imag.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:12	dholbach	hey vuntz_
05:12	dholbach	vuntz_: we started without you already
05:12	seb128	hi vuntz_
05:12	vuntz_	hi
05:12	vuntz_	sorry for being late
05:12	dholbach	what would you all like to see from the desktop team? or do in the desktop team?
=== WaterSevenUb [n=WaterSev@195-23-220-244.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:13	dholbach	does the MeetingIdeas page give you ideas, answer questions?
=== mvo michael vogt and late
05:13	ogra	what is " own Wiki table (apart from UniverseCandidates" ?
05:14	dholbach	ogra: ah yes... i wanted to have a gnome/ubuntu-desktop specific table of stuff we take care of and we want to see ASAP
05:14	ogra	does that mean NEW sftware or software that should move into the default desktop ?
05:14	dholbach	might move into the default desktop at some stage
05:14	ogra	ah, yes
05:14	dholbach	for example marlin (a sound editor) is still bumpy, but i'd really like to see it - so if we as a team could try to get it in (and working together with upstream), that'd be great
=== dholbach feels like in the UbuntuAndUpstream-BOF again.
05:15	ogra	heh
05:16	dholbach	so you all see everything you want from the desktopteam going already? :)
05:17	dholbach	once we're big enough as a team, we could even take more care of the gnome part of universe
05:17	vuntz_	well, I think the team just needs a bit more organization, but in the end, we don't want too much organization (I guess)
05:17	dholbach	vuntz_: it does, i agree with you
05:18	dholbach	vuntz_: can you think of something that should be better defined?
=== BenC [n=bcollins@richmond-209-163-125-167.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
05:19	dholbach	seb128: do you think the point about making the desktop specs more "accessible" to people from the desktop team makes sense?
05:19	vuntz_	dholbach: have permanent links of bugs to triage
05:19	vuntz_	dholbach: have lists of easy bugs to fix
05:19	dholbach	vuntz_: yeah, that'd be great
05:19	vuntz_	lists of easy tasks to do
05:19	seb128	dholbach: how accessible?
05:20	vuntz_	it's also a matter of showing that it's easy to contribute :-)
05:20	dholbach	seb128: 'accessible' like bits of specs, where people can help out
05:20	seb128	we started alist of tasks
05:20	dholbach	vuntz_: ++
05:20	dholbach	yeah, i think that's a good start
05:20	dholbach	did everybody know about DesktopTeam/TODO? :)
05:20	ogra	nope
05:20	vuntz_	not me
05:20	seb128	I put some stuff here which would be useful
05:20	seb128	than we want to do
05:20	seb128	but what we don't do yet because we are too busy
05:21	seb128	ie: stuff nice to contribute
05:21	seb128	like splitting totem to make a mozilla binary package :)
05:21	Nafallo	nope
05:21	Nafallo	and getting the menuicon back :-P
05:21	seb128	?
=== Nafallo hides*
05:21	seb128	we have no such bug
05:21	lllmanulll	I agree about the "easy things to do", and with this kind of list, I would certainly contribute much more :)
05:21	dholbach	ReturnOfTheMenuIcons-BOF :)
05:21	vuntz_	hey lllmanulll :-)
05:22	Nafallo	seb128: I haven't filed it yet :-)
05:22	seb128	lllmanulll: I've a special task for you, you started on it
05:22	seb128	lllmanulll: the new gnome-session logout dialog seems a perfect job for you :)
05:22	ogra	what about "ship activeX control dlls with wine" *g*
05:22	vuntz_	also, I'm wondering how much the desktop team should work with upstream
05:22	vuntz_	ie, how much new development should be done
05:22	ogra	i guess wine will enter main at some point ...
05:22	lllmanulll	seb128: All right, perfect :)
05:23	seb128	lllmanulll: you really want to work on this? would be great
05:23	vuntz_	(or if it's a "package, triage bugs & fix bugs" team)
05:23	seb128	lllmanulll: that's probably much easier than the add to panel
05:24	dholbach	vuntz_: the development depends on how much people are contributing
05:24	lllmanulll	seb128: No problem
05:24	seb128	rock
05:24	vuntz_	dholbach: right :-)
05:24	lllmanulll	seb128: I guess it would be quite easy, yeah
05:24	dholbach	vuntz_: if somebody wants to hack gnome-panel to do $SOMETHING_CRAZY, we could push it into ubuntu to get people testing it and we'd contribute it upstream - i think that makes sense
05:25	mvo	in general we do not too much development. but some HIG experts would be very welcome IMO :)
05:25	dholbach	(as an example)
05:25	lllmanulll	seb128: Huh, let me make sure : it's just a very simple dialog with four or five buttons with icons, and "OK" and "Cancel", right ? :)
05:25	Nafallo	mvo++
05:25	dholbach	mpt is unfortunately in holidays
05:25	dholbach	i think he'd have had some ideas on this
05:25	dholbach	i just created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/NewSoftware
05:25	vuntz_	seb128/lllmanulll: note that markmc wanted to move the dialog to the panel
05:25	seb128	lllmanulll: let's discuss that later on -desktop, but that's a real panel with 2 areas for the 2 kinds of actions (like windows has 2 buttons) and the icons here to do that
05:26	seb128	vuntz_: what dialog? accept lllmanulll's work upstream?
05:26	vuntz_	seb128: logout dialog
05:26	seb128	oh, ok
05:26	seb128	doesn't matter where the code is
05:26	seb128	:)
05:27	seb128	yeah
05:27	seb128	I agree with mvo
05:27	seb128	an usuability team would rock
05:27	dholbach	did you all know about UsabilityWishlist?
05:27	seb128	somebody to ping when you get usuability/HIG bugs and I've not clue about this
05:27	lllmanulll	dholbach: Huh, no
05:27	dholbach	:)
05:27	seb128	not "no clue", but are not good at designing :)
05:27	Nafallo	dholbach IS the wiki-master :-)
05:28	mvo	usability team++
05:28	lllmanulll	Yeah
05:28	lllmanulll	But that's a lot of teams :) Couldn't usability issues be given to the Desktop team ? Or is this a totallly weird idea ? :)
05:29	dholbach	a subteam, like some people who "have a clue" and enjoy doing HIG/usabilty?
05:29	mvo	yeah, let's make it only one team for now
05:29	dholbach	i met a guy here in berlin, who'd enjoy working on this
05:30	dholbach	as ogra said: we should raise awareness of the team
05:30	lllmanulll	I would love working on usability issues too
05:30	dholbach	i think there are a lot of people using ubuntu, who would care about the desktop and love working on this
05:30	seb128	would be nice to have a different list or something like GNOME guys do
05:30	seb128	so you can Cc: usuability-list on a bug to get their opinion
05:31	dholbach	sounds good, as soon as we have some more people for this
05:32	dholbach	shall we start DesktopTeam/Organisation and dump our ideas there?
05:32	dholbach	as we don't have a gobby session here ;)
05:32	Nafallo	why don't we? :-)
05:33	dholbach	because the wiki saves stuff more securely than gobby? :-p
05:33	ogra	bah
=== ogra will write a main inclusion report for gobby over the weekend and add it to edubuntu-desktop :p
05:34	Nafallo	oki. I have only used it once so... ;-)
05:34	Nafallo	ogra: yay! :-)
05:34	dholbach	Nafallo: it trashed a couple of specs at UBZ :)
05:35	ogra	dholbach, thats a user error :)
05:35	mvo	ogra: ...
05:35	dholbach	yeah, sorry, it was my mistake to not save every minute :)
05:35	Nafallo	hehe
05:35	ogra	*grin*
05:36	Nafallo	ogra: implement auto-saving before MainInclusion to make it dholbach-friendly aswell? :-)
05:36	ogra	hehe
05:36	dholbach	https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Organisation
05:37	ogra	Nafallo, if $USER == 'somekindofholbach' autosave on ?
05:37	Nafallo	lol
05:37	mvo	ogra: will you fix "close button closes on all clients without saving and asking" too first?
05:37	dholbach	IS_DHOLBACH_USING_THIS=1 gobby       works normally
05:38	ogra	mvo, probably ...
05:38	ogra	:)
05:39	ogra	i'll look at it ... i want it for edubuntu so i'll probably have to do the fixes
05:39	ogra	dholbach, Organisation looks good ...
05:40	ogra	so far
05:40	lllmanulll	So what's the decision about usability ? Create a new list/team ? I'd *love* to participate :)
05:41	dholbach	we should start with the ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com list
05:41	dholbach	and the team as it is
05:41	seb128	I'm for creating the tools now
05:41	seb128	I don't agree
05:41	lllmanulll	All right, I vote for seb128 !
05:41	lllmanulll	:-p
05:41	dholbach	:)
05:41	seb128	usuability is something that is useful for desktop guys
05:41	dholbach	it's just that there is ~0 traffic on ubuntu-desktop@
05:42	seb128	but need to be created because desktop guys often are not usuability expert
05:42	seb128	or don't care
05:42	seb128	or are not good at designing stuff
05:42	seb128	and usuability guys probably don't want to follow all the technical discussions
05:42	seb128	right, which is a different topic
05:42	ogra	seb128, we'll need the people first ...
05:43	seb128	I tend to think than people come when the thing exist
05:43	ogra	make a call for help to the mailing lists at first step
05:43	seb128	and don't come to force you to create it
05:43	dholbach	look at the motu business - we STILL have no mailing list - do you think we'd get it for ubuntu-usability@ faster? :)
05:43	ogra	get people in to show there is momentum ...
=== vuntz_ wonders why his name appears in Organisation ;-)
05:43	ogra	than ask for a list
05:44	ogra	vuntz_, because you talked about the topic nextto it ;)
05:44	seb128	vuntz_: what do you think? Creating a list first which will encourage enthousiastic people to subscribe, or other way?
05:44	seb128	trying to get people using -desktop to start
05:44	seb128	and moving if there is enough of them
05:44	vuntz_	I'd say it's better to have only one list at the beginning
05:44	seb128	k
05:44	seb128	so let's use -desktop for it
05:44	seb128	you guys win
05:45	vuntz_	and I'm a bit afraid that we ask too much to usability people if they are only 2 or 3
=== dholbach hugs seb128, so he's not unhappy any more
05:45	vuntz_	(that's what's happening in GNOME for bugs...)
05:45	seb128	I'm not unhappy
05:45	dholbach	*nod*
05:45	seb128	but I tend to think that usuability guys will not subscribe to a technical list
=== lllmanulll has to go but no matter when the usability list is created, I will be glad to contribute :)
05:46	ogra	is the -desktop list a technical list ?
05:46	seb128	is supposed to be yep
05:46	ogra	i havent seen any technical stuff there yet
05:46	seb128	the ubuntu-devel of the desktop team
05:46	dholbach	lllmanulll: super, have a nice day :)
05:46	seb128	no, there is virtually no discussion atm
05:46	seb128	we use IRC most of the time :)
05:46	lllmanulll	Cheers :)
05:47	vuntz_	what about asking the people who will be in the usability subteam ?
05:47	seb128	yeah
05:47	seb128	dholbach: make a point to send a mail about bringing usuability people to the desktop team
05:47	seb128	like 'call to voluntars"
05:47	dholbach	YESSIR
05:48	ogra	a real dholbach announce please :) they seem to attract people ;)
05:48	ogra	(see the bugdays)
05:48	dholbach	merci beaucoup
05:48	seb128	with a nut of vuntz_ with it
=== dholbach blushes and curtseys
05:48	seb128	so it's perfect :)
05:48	ogra	yeah
05:49	dholbach	TODO-ed it (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO)
05:49	seb128	cool
05:49	ogra	yay
05:49	seb128	dholbach: should be keep the DONE points on a table to show what we have done?
05:49	seb128	or just drop them
05:50	dholbach	seb128: that sounds good - i always just dropped them
05:50	dholbach	but we will do that
=== dholbach changes
05:50	seb128	dholbach: I've changed
05:50	dholbach	and because the lists will be sooo long in the end, we will print them as books and they'll bestsellers
05:50	dholbach	ROCK
05:50	seb128	:)
05:51	vuntz_	<seb128> we use IRC most of the time :)
05:51	dholbach	good point
05:51	vuntz_	seb128: btw, we might need to change this
05:51	ogra	dholbach, make it a requirement for all ubuntu books to put them in as appendix A
05:51	vuntz_	(if we want more people to contribute)
05:51	seb128	yeah
05:51	ogra	yup
05:51	dholbach	yeah, we need to document better
05:52	vuntz_	having more discussion on -desktop is a good way to show that the team is alive and well-working
05:52	dholbach	sometimes, even i have no clue about things to come on (because i'm not chatting to upstream or debian guys all day)
05:53	seb128	yeah, let's try to use the list when discussions could interest people
=== seb128 just mailed about gconf changes :)
=== dholbach saw it already :)
=== ogra too ....
05:53	seb128	I just sent it to -desktop
=== Nafallo to
05:53	vuntz_	seb128: you talked about things that could interest people ;-)
=== vuntz_ runs
05:54	seb128	vuntz_: define "people" :p
05:54	Nafallo	ahh, that's what I was doing!
05:54	seb128	do you call yourself people? :)
05:54	Nafallo	*subscribing*
=== vuntz_ waits for the mail to see if it's interesting
05:55	vuntz_	:-)
05:55	dholbach	that went to u-d-a@
05:55	dholbach	:)
05:55	ogra	and to u-d
05:55	ogra	and to u-dt
05:56	ogra	seb128, crossposter :p
05:56	seb128	announce and desktop only
05:56	seb128	and desktop just because we said we should show we do work :)
05:56	dholbach	nautilus-actions?
05:56	dholbach	wow :)
05:56	seb128	dholbach: read planet GNOME
05:56	dholbach	i did
05:56	seb128	k
05:58	dholbach	so what will you guys do next week in your desktop team activities?
05:59	vuntz_	hug everyone ?
06:00	dholbach	sounds good :)
06:00	vuntz_	or is it a bad answer?
06:00	dholbach	i just thought, this might bring up some ideas :)
06:00	ogra	isnt hugging a good idea ?
06:01	dholbach	it is :)
06:01	ogra	i mean, dont we do our regular stuff on desktop packages anyway ?
06:01	vuntz_	dholbach: I think I'd like to help people getting involved
06:01	dholbach	vuntz_: what were you thinking about?
06:01	vuntz_	I'm pretty useless since I don't have a lot of time
06:02	ogra	i.e. i'm fighting with a xscreensaver split into 6 packages .... do you want me to state that here ?
06:02	vuntz_	dholbach: well, making an easy-to-find place with easy tasks
06:02	dholbach	vuntz_: you're not useless, i'm quite happy to have you here
06:02	vuntz_	to be honest, this is something I'd like to do for GNOME too :-)
06:03	dholbach	i very much appreciate this
06:03	vuntz_	:-)
06:03	seb128	that's why you guys should not vote for vuntz for the foundation :)
06:03	vuntz_	seb128: I hope they're not Foundation memebers ;-)
=== dholbach is Ubuntu Desktop Team member :)
06:04	seb128	;)
06:04	vuntz_	okay, so, I'd like to see this:
06:05	vuntz_	everytime something interesting in the desktop is done, a note is added on a wiki page
06:05	vuntz_	then, we can make nice summaries so people can see what has been done
06:05	seb128	good idea
06:06	\sh	moins
06:06	dholbach	that's brilliant, yes
06:06	vuntz_	ideally, I'd like to see such a summary every week (or every two weeks)
=== dholbach hugs vuntz_
06:06	vuntz_	the mail would also contain some easy love tasks
06:06	dholbach	seb128: that will mean, we have to do more work, to make those summaries more exciting
=== seb128 blinks
06:07	seb128	I already work like 15 hours/day
06:07	seb128	:p
06:07	vuntz_	(this is something secret I'm planning to do for GNOME too, btw)
=== seb128 brb
06:07	ogra	tsk... he sleeps 9h ? thats way to much :)
06:07	dholbach	* uploaded gnome 2.15.2
06:07	dholbach	* had a nice dog walk
06:07	dholbach	* watched soccer game metz-nancy
06:07	dholbach	* uploaded new gnumeric
06:07	dholbach	* watched a nice movie in the cinema
06:07	dholbach	* did a bug day
06:08	dholbach	^ that sounds good :)
06:08	vuntz_	metz-nancy
06:08	vuntz_	ahahahah
06:08	vuntz_	does someone plan to send a summary of the meeting?
=== dholbach can do that
06:09	vuntz_	great
06:09	seb128	vuntz_: thanks for voluntaring
06:09	dholbach	have to do that for the a11y meeting anyways
06:09	seb128	s/vuntz_/dholbach
06:09	dholbach	de rien
06:09	vuntz_	dholbach: I'm starting to be used to do this too ;-)
06:09	vuntz_	anyway, less work for me. I love this :-)
06:09	dholbach	:)
06:10	dholbach	i think for a first meeting this went quite well
06:10	dholbach	less chaotic than i thought ;)
06:10	seb128	yeah
06:11	dholbach	shall we have a meeting in one month of time?
06:11	Simira	I think maybe trying to blank a cd with cd-record has trashed a lot of my applications and made nothing work...
06:11	dholbach	(for those that don't enjoy christmas with their family) ;)
06:11	\sh	uh..
06:11	slomo	dholbach: good idea, i'll be more active at that time ;)
06:12	Nafallo	dholbach: *grin*
06:12	\sh	25. december is the birthday of my ex..and anglo-saxons highest xmas day..
06:12	dholbach	\sh: you might have missed the smiley
06:12	\sh	that means in the morning i'm with my little one...in the afternoon ok
06:12	seb128	friday 16th?
06:12	dholbach	sounds good
06:12	\sh	dholbach: there is no smiley for me...normally i don't celebrate xmas when I'm in single status
06:12	dholbach	should we have different times?
06:13	dholbach	to accomodate the australian/american/asian folks?
06:13	seb128	hum
06:13	dholbach	or are we all ok with 16 UTC?
06:13	seb128	9utc?
06:14	dholbach	16th, 16 UTC sounds good, doesnt it? :)
06:14	seb128	fine with me :)
06:14	dholbach	ok, i'll put that in the meeting minutes as well
06:14	dholbach	thank you very much everybody... i really appreciated your ideas and input
06:15	dholbach	to be honest... in the first few silent minutes, i thought we were doomed :)
06:15	dholbach	but now i'm quite confident, we'll get a super-duper desktop team rolling
06:15	seb128	:)
06:16	vuntz_	have to go
06:16	vuntz_	see you later
06:16	seb128	was a nice meeting
06:16	seb128	thanks dholbach
06:16	seb128	thanks everybody
06:16	ogra	thanks daniel
06:16	dholbach	i enjoyed it
06:17	dholbach	everybody dismissed :)
06:17	Nafallo	:-)

}}}