== Summary == '''Jason Grieves''' 1.Low Vision/Gnome-mag update * Luke, Status of new gnome-mag packages? * Full Screen Magnification Review. I need more testers! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview * Firefox Magnification improving! https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=320357 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=317213 1. Accessibility Documentation * Wikified, but improvements needed! Assigning to document 1. Navigation on Wiki * Awesome job on the Wiki, but there are some places were "Navigation" is at the bottom. Am I the only one missing these when trying to find locations? Can we throw them at top also, or would that clutter things? '''Henrik Nilsen Omma''' 1. Test Testing * Please have a look at Accessibility/Testing and give feedback on the general concept and feel free to add more detail * If this seems OK to most people, I will post a request for testing volunteers on some mailing lists and forums 1. Ubuntu Express update * Latest plan at UbuntuExpress/GnomeUserInterface/Accessibility == Log == {{{ 07:59 TheMuso Hey all. 07:59 dholbach hellas! 08:00 dholbach I suppose we'll wait a bit for the others to arrive. :-) 08:00 TheMuso Yeah. === kjcole is Kevin Cole 08:01 kjcole Hi. ;-) === TheMuso checks email while he waits. It is much easier getting up early for something like this. === ogra_ [n=ogra@p5089F92C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:02 kjcole Hi ogra. 08:03 linbetwin hello all! === hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:04 dholbach hey linbetwin, hno73 08:04 TheMuso hno73: Just read and replied to your email, thanks 08:04 hno73 hey dholbach 08:05 linbetwin hello, dholbach! 08:06 sivang hi all 08:06 sivang what meeting is that? 08:06 sivang ah , ally 08:06 sivang cool === sivang is having hard time following the meetings with busy dayjob schedule, sorry 08:07 kjcole a11y 00ps ;-) (If you didn't get it, never mind.) 08:08 linbetwin i always wondered why a11y for accessibility 08:08 kjcole sivang, I know the feeling. I just told someone I was attending a meeting but wasn't sure which one. Just that my alarm said "go". ;-) 08:09 sivang kjcole: hehe, I need that alarm as well 08:09 dholbach linbetwin: ay 08:09 TheMuso Ok, so I think everybody is here... 08:09 linbetwin dholbach: thanks === dholbach searches the Agenda on the wiki 08:10 dholbach https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda 08:11 hno73 Looks like there aren't much in need of deciding, but some good work has been done since last meeting 08:11 dholbach jgrieves: do you want to start with your items on the agenda? 08:11 dholbach yeah, and i was impressed with the amount of people signing up on the mailing list 08:11 TheMuso Cool! 08:11 dholbach we're more and more taking off :-) === crimsun [i=crimsun@pdpc/supporter/silver/crimsun] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:12 dholbach maybe henrik better starts with his items, while we're waiting for jason - does that make sense? 08:13 hno73 yeah, I might have leave early as well 08:13 hno73 Did anyone look at the testing plans? === dholbach is honest and has a look *now* :) === TheMuso skimmed them. 08:14 hno73 We've ended up slitting it up into very simple tests and then more in-depth reviews 08:14 hno73 Not so much the tests them selves, but this way of doing it 08:14 dholbach i'd move the legend (explaining v1-v7) above the table 08:15 TheMuso dholbach: I agree. 08:15 dholbach i meant v1-v3, m1-m3 08:16 TheMuso As for logging in, that is not possible at all AFAIK without setting it up. 08:16 hno73 kjcole: I was thinking about including an h1 for hearing impairments, but I thought that might need to be done in a different way 08:16 TheMuso It is not as easy as loading gnopernicus etc. 08:16 hno73 kjcole: focusing on educational apps, as you have pointed out 08:17 hno73 TheMuso: so that is one that we can register as a failure straight off 08:17 hno73 also useful 08:17 kjcole hno73, I confess I haven't had much time to work on a11y stuff, though I did start wikify-ing TheMuso's page (I think it was his). 08:17 TheMuso kjcole: Which one? === TheMuso must start working through some of these and commenting on them. 08:18 hno73 kjcole: but in general you would agree that there isn't a problem of too much use of sound to convey information on the desktop 08:19 hno73 but rather that the issues are more subtle 08:19 kjcole TheMuso, Hell, if I know. ;-) There was a page saying "Obsolete. Please put [URL] in the wiki." 08:19 hno73 I think that was Jason's page 08:20 kjcole TheMuso: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation 08:20 TheMuso Yeah that was Jason's. I just put it up somewhere so others could have a look at it. 08:20 kjcole TheMuso: From http://www.themuso.com/ubuntu/accessibility/GNOME_Accessibility_Overview_For_Ubuntu.txt 08:21 TheMuso Yeah not mine. 08:21 hno73 Basically I guess the exact nature of the tests ins not that important. we need to start doing testing and then filing bugs 08:21 dholbach yeah 08:22 dholbach and i think your page is a good start 08:22 hno73 including to upstreams like OpenOffice and Firefox 08:22 hno73 I think Jason has been making good progress with mozilla hno73: I don't think I'd worry too much about the use of the variety of sounds... If 08:23 kjcole there's some generic visual indication that "a sound has happened" it would be somewhat helpful, but a lot of sounds aren't strictly necessary. 08:23 hno73 Ok, so I'll clean that up a bit more and then appeal to the wider community for help with testing 08:23 jgrieves sorry all had a family emerg. 08:23 jgrieves greetings! 08:23 dholbach yeah, we should start blogging, writing to mailing lists and invite people as much as we can 08:23 hno73 kjcole: right 08:24 hno73 dholbach: yeah, we have the basic infrastructure now 08:24 dholbach yeah i'm happy to see this all emerging to quickly 08:24 TheMuso jgrieves: Hey 08:25 jgrieves alright jsut to let you know firefox is getting much better with magnification hno73: In an ideal world, people would be able to choose different colored flashes, 08:25 kjcole different regions or different animations for events in the same way that they can with sounds, but I think the more essential problem relates to language. 08:25 jgrieves it was really unusable, Gen Chen @ Sun is taking the lead 08:25 dholbach jsgotangco's blog entry was nice, but since then, nothing much happened (from somebody's point of view, who's not subscribed to all mailing list) 08:26 jgrieves TheMuso: I threw your gnome-mag packages into dapper it seemd to run fine 08:27 TheMuso Right. 08:27 linbetwin jgrieves: so is that bug about the focus moving to the top left corner solved? 08:27 jgrieves TheMuso: i can't seem to find that bug @ ubuntu but last I saw, it was on hold because the owner (Daniel?) couldn't get it to run in Dapper 08:28 hno73 dholbach: but we have a cunning plan of getting on osnews every two weeks or so 08:28 hno73 :) 08:28 jgrieves linbetwin yep, I built the latest with CVS and that is now solved, included another problem, with focus getting lost in text boxes 08:28 dholbach hno73: wow, that's ambitious :) 08:28 jgrieves linbetwin those patches should be included in the next FF update, hopefully should see that in Dapper 08:28 hno73 dholbach: did you see http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=12942 ? 08:29 linbetwin jgrieves: great! 08:29 dholbach yeah, that was super 08:29 hno73 jgrieves: is working on a review now that we'll post up as well 08:29 hno73 And I have a couple in the pipeline 08:30 jgrieves hno73: yep, i sent to list, I have another couple pages left 08:30 dholbach it'd be great to have bugs we monitor upstream 08:30 hno73 I'm sure there are ways we can tie in with this on-going Mass ODF story as well 08:30 hno73 jgrieves: yeah it looks good 08:31 jgrieves hno73 just a start :) I got tired at 3 AM :) 08:31 hno73 :) 08:31 hno73 So Ubuntu Express looks like it might be quite useable for us 08:32 jgrieves hno73: that is great, I was following progress and sharing with others, I think this will be a big story for us if we do it well 08:32 TheMuso hno73: Any idea when that might start appearing on the CDs? 08:32 hno73 how do people feel about using the m1...v3 codes as boot codes on the live CD? 08:32 TheMuso They will need to be very well explained. 08:32 TheMuso Even then I am not sure. 08:32 hno73 TheMuso: no not really. I'll catch up with Kamion about it again soon 08:33 jgrieves hno73: it took me a while to figure that one out on the page but its pretty logical 08:33 crimsun something less esoteric than m1...v3, perhaps 08:33 hno73 the point is that those codes would be well advertised on the website, even on the CD cover perhaps 08:34 TheMuso Yeah that could work. 08:34 hno73 if we send out CDs to special groups there can be a notice in an appropriate format 08:34 hno73 like braille even 08:34 jgrieves we thought about putting out braille documentationw ith CD's? 08:34 jgrieves hno73: great minds think alike :) 08:34 hno73 :) 08:35 kjcole Oops. Minor fires here at the office. I guess I'm going to have to catch the rest of this in the logs. Sorry 'bout that. 08:35 hno73 once the CD has the option then it's just a matter of making people aware 08:35 jgrieves https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Documentation a major thanks to kjcole for helping me get most of this straightend up 08:36 jgrieves hno73 i think your right. Once aware it seems pretty simplistic 08:36 hno73 Ok, so I'll keep the gteam posted on updates wrt UE 08:36 hno73 cool 08:36 hno73 ok, I'm done with my points 08:36 hno73 jgrieves: you hade some otems? 08:36 TheMuso For those who are interested, I have been talking to hno73 about the inclusion of speakup, and it seems that it may not be so much of a problem as was first thought. 08:36 hno73 items the documentation really needs some work with gnome for blind usrs, now I can 08:37 jgrieves definitely fill in the sections I have, but would like some definitely help with increasing content 08:37 hno73 Yeah, the kernel devs are positive about trying to put it in the main kernel 08:37 TheMuso I can certainly help with the screen reader/speech aspect, but since I don't have a braille device, I am unable to help regarding that. 08:37 hno73 which is great! fingers crossed it goes smoothly 08:37 jgrieves TheMuso progress on the /Speakup page? 08:38 TheMuso jgrieves: No, including speakup into the Ubuntu kernel. 08:38 hno73 jgrieves: no I've been emailing with the ubuntu kernel maintainers === TheMuso intends to fetch an mm tree later today to have a look at what version is there. 08:38 jgrieves TheMuso: yeah :) I was talking about anything since my first reading of the page 08:39 hno73 so some testing from our side would be great 08:39 TheMuso Indeed. 08:39 jgrieves are our kernel people sounding optomistic? 08:39 TheMuso I may contact BenC on IRC later to ask about it. 08:40 hno73 jgrieves: yes indeed 08:40 TheMuso jgrieves: To them, as long as it doesn't stomp over too much other stuff, and it doesn't really, it should be fine. 08:40 hno73 though it's still untested, so I prefer not to count chickens :) 08:40 jgrieves hno73: great 08:40 TheMuso I would be happy to give it a workout. 08:40 hno73 I'm guessing it will be in module form, so optional 08:40 jgrieves I can throw it on a virtual machine 08:40 TheMuso I will also put up a guide as to how to get it working with software speech for those who want to try it out. 08:41 jgrieves TheMuso great 08:41 hno73 Cool, I guess we'll see it in the wild in a week or two === TheMuso makes his way to his local kernel.org mirror. 08:42 jgrieves TheMuso your the only one i know who tested my full screen magnification instructions, anybody else? 08:42 jgrieves TheMuso: my new review has some "workarounds" I will need people to see how well they work, 08:42 hno73 jgrieves: I should try as well. I've only tried half screen before 08:43 jgrieves hno73 definitely. Of possible just use my documentation and see how well it is written, I want it to be easy to follow 08:43 hno73 Has anyone tried it on two acreens? 08:43 jgrieves and eventually scripted 08:43 hno73 jgrieves: cool, will do 08:43 TheMuso I haven't as I only have one monitor here. 08:43 hno73 awesome :) 08:44 jgrieves hno73 nope, can you send a 21'' lcd for christmas? :) 08:44 hno73 hm, the 21" ones are still quite expensive :) 08:45 hno73 but the 19" ones are good value IMO :) 08:45 TheMuso Indeed. I would like to replace my CRT with a 21" LCD one day. === hno73 has one, and is glad as I spend a lot of time in front of it 08:46 jgrieves so where do we stand with the gnome-mag packages? hno73 and Luke, you tested on dapper yet? 08:46 hno73 jgrieves: about your wiki navigation point. That's just a macro in the page, so I can fix that 08:47 jgrieves hno73: cool, i'm not sure what is most usable as I was never the best web developer, but some seem to be at top, others at bottom === hno73 did an install of dapper which failed to get net access. will try again 08:47 hno73 jgrieves: ccool, I'll do that 08:48 TheMuso jgrieves: Yes I have. I have no problems, however when dholbach tried to test it, he encountered something weird. 08:48 TheMuso dholbach: Any progress? 08:48 hno73 btw, speaking of web. try: http://gentoo.warthogs.hbd.com:8003/ubuntu 08:48 jgrieves TheMuso i was worried with the new 7.0 we hit some new bugs in fixes/damage, but both of ours seems to be fine 08:48 hno73 using the View > stylesheets menu you can change themes 08:49 hno73 it's meant to work by clicking the eye logo 08:49 hno73 but it's still a bit broken 08:49 jgrieves View > Page Style, very cool!! 08:49 hno73 I hope to implement that accross our websites and wikis 08:50 hno73 (there will be slightly fewer options though) 08:50 jgrieves i like that on the fly action :) 08:50 hno73 I guess high contrast will small letters is a bit pointless === Kyral [n=kyral@ubuntu/member/kyral] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:50 jgrieves TheMuso: can you send link to that bug? I can't find it 08:51 hno73 So the plan is to have the best accessible site of any distro 08:51 hno73 at the very least :) 08:51 TheMuso http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=20320 08:51 jgrieves hno73: makes sense, if we built it, they will come :) 08:52 jgrieves TheMuso: ty, will add comments so we can get this show on the road 08:52 hno73 getting a website AT award would be very cool. then we would get linked to from relevant places 08:52 jgrieves hno73, very, how well does the wiki work with screen readers? TheMuso? 08:53 TheMuso jgrieves: Very well, at least on the console with links2. A bit hard to edit pages though. 08:53 kjcole Back. 08:53 hno73 jgrieves: I think it still has the navigation stuff at the top, which is not so good 08:53 hno73 It's quite hard to fix though :( 08:53 jgrieves TheMuso: cool. have we done extensive testing with JAWS or Gnopernicus? 08:54 hno73 I'll probably need to work with upstream on that 08:54 jgrieves my guess is most disabled users who might want to take the plunge would start in Windows with Jaws/WindowWise 08:54 TheMuso jgrieves: JAWS is alright, but haven't given it a real work out. Haven't tried with gnopernicus due to the firefox support being crap. Haven't tried with 1.5 yet. === lucasd [n=double@200.209.161.163] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:54 jgrieves TheMuso: my FF with gnopernicus ws pretty good, most problems I had were poor website coding 08:55 TheMuso jgrieves: What about speech? 08:55 jgrieves TheMuso: but I am not very good with the screen reader, haven't learned hot keys or that really weird...control.thingy they have === hno73 is getting visitors from overseas now, so I'll have to run ... 08:55 TheMuso With carrot browsing mode? 08:55 jgrieves TheMuso: yep that's what I tested, it read the pages, hit pictures, etc 08:55 TheMuso hno73: No problem. Have a merry Christmas. 08:55 hno73 Thanks everyone :) 08:55 jgrieves hno73: merry Christmas! did u email me? 08:55 TheMuso We will discuss next meeting etc in a week or so. 08:56 hno73 jgrieves: earlier today yes 08:56 jgrieves hno73: if that's you, i'll reply with details after I get a big chucnk worked out, but thanks! that is exactly what i wanted 08:56 jgrieves going into draft number 2 08:56 jgrieves so i have a good iddea what i need to focus/improve === PhantomsDad [n=gary@konversation/developer/PhantomsDad] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hno73 [n=henrik@henrik.gotadsl.co.uk] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] 08:57 jgrieves not the most active discussion today huh? were is Daniel? 08:57 TheMuso Good question. 08:57 TheMuso PhantomsDad: Have you had much to do with KDE's magnifier? 08:58 PhantomsDad TheMuso: No, Gunnar and Olaf would be the ones to talk to. 08:58 TheMuso We have been discussing test plans for magnification with GNOME etc, and have been considering testing the KDE accessibility tools. 08:58 TheMuso hmmm ok. 08:58 PhantomsDad The mag that Gunnar is working on has not been released yet and the code is not available. === bmonty [n=bmontgom@ubuntu/member/bmonty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:59 PhantomsDad Gunnar must first obtain ok from his doctoral mentor. 08:59 PhantomsDad He must defend his thesis before it can be released. 08:59 jgrieves PhantomsDad: how well doe sit keep with focus in KDE? === TheMuso wonders why most things have to depend on academia. === highvoltage [n=Jono@196.207.41.251] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 08:59 PhantomsDad Gunnar demoed it at aKademy. I'll get the link.. 09:00 jgrieves i know in Gnome without the AT turned on gnome-mag won't follow keyboard, and then some apps dont even work with that... === TheMuso must really poke the GNOME folks about speech-dispatcher. === dholbach [n=daniel@p54A65E58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lucasd [n=double@200.209.161.163] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Fui] 09:01 jgrieves there is the man! 09:01 dholbach i flew out the net, sorry :-( 09:01 dholbach the connection at my parents place seems a bit flaky 09:02 jgrieves i sure as heck wasn't going to lead this crazy party, blind leading the blind :) 09:02 TheMuso hahaha. 09:02 TheMuso dholbach: I have managed to get PhantomsDad to join, a dev from the KDE accessibility project. 09:02 dholbach oh nice 09:02 TheMuso Have you any questions? His area is mainly kttsd stuff. 09:02 dholbach hello PhantomsDad 09:03 PhantomsDad hello 09:03 dholbach what were you talking about in the time, when i was away? 09:03 TheMuso Since this is a meeting channel, and we seem to be finished, should we maybe move this elsewhere? 09:03 dholbach i'll read the irclog 09:03 TheMuso dholbach: Mainly user testing, and magnification stuff, particularly relating to docs. 09:03 PhantomsDad Here's a transcript of Gunnar's talk, but I'm afraid it won't answer your question. :/ http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE+for+Partially+Sighted+Users 09:04 jgrieves cool i'm looking forward to KDE 4.0 + accessibility 09:05 TheMuso jgrieves: So am I. If it is better than GNOME's, I am switching. 09:05 TheMuso Particularly if the speech system is using SD (speech-dispatcher) 09:05 jgrieves TheMuso: the KDE folks seem to have such a large group of developers, i haven't ever made the switch because of lack of accessibility 09:06 linbetwin jgrieves: i tested kmag in KDE 3.4.2, 3.4.3 and 3.5 in various distros 09:06 jgrieves TheMuso: information on speech-dispatcher? 09:06 jgrieves linbetwin: how well did it keep focus? 09:06 TheMuso jgrieves: KDE intend to use speech-dispatcher as their speech back-end which IMO is a really good idea. 09:06 jgrieves TheMuso: link on information? I haven't really heard of it before 09:07 linbetwin jgrieves: it doesn't follow keyboard focus at all, but it's much better at rendering the magnified area (no black blocks) speech-dispatcher is a daemon and API that provides applications like screen readers to 09:07 TheMuso be able to output speech. Speech-dispatcher handles the various synthesizers that are available. 09:08 jgrieves PhantomsDad: is that demo linked somewhere on that page? 09:08 jgrieves TheMuso: sounds much more powerful than what we have now 09:08 TheMuso jgrieves: Indeed. 09:08 jgrieves linbetwin: does it use composite? 09:08 TheMuso I am digging around to see if I can find a speech-dispatcerh gnome-speech driver anywhere. 09:09 linbetwin jgrieves: i don't know what composite is 09:09 jgrieves TheMuso: asked gnome-accessibility? the sun folks might know 09:09 jgrieves linbetwin composite extension for X, what future screen mags will be using as a major back-end 09:09 TheMuso jgrieves: I might have to. 09:10 jgrieves TheMuso: or build your own :) 09:10 linbetwin jgrieves: i really don't know 09:11 linbetwin but the magnified image is much cleaner than in gnome-mag 09:11 linbetwin but it can't be docked to the edge of the screen 09:12 jgrieves linbetwin yeah there were major limitations, i couldn't really use it in a work environemtn 09:12 linbetwin and it has a superfluous title bar 09:12 jgrieves linbetwin gnome-mag + full screen + TheMuso's fixes to gnome-mag + my workarounds actually works pretty well 09:13 jgrieves https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Reviews/Gnome-Mag#preview Anyway folks, thanks for the talk/meeting. If you wish to discuss anything further with 09:13 TheMuso me I can be found in #ubuntu-accessibility. I would like to see that channel used more. :) === TheMuso [n=luke@dsl-202-173-132-131.nsw.westnet.com.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] 09:14 linbetwin jgrieves: i don't think i can use full screen magnification. I'm used to a having a window at the lower bottom of the screen 09:14 jgrieves TheMuso: agreed we are lonely in there :) now that i am back home i plan to idle with you hehe 09:15 jgrieves linbetwin: cool, whatever works for you. i went crazy with 50% of my screen being used 09:15 jgrieves linbetwin: of course i don't use it on a regular basis 09:15 jgrieves TheMuso i'll keep up to date on that bug 09:16 jgrieves TheMuso i added my comments you might want to do the same, I really want to get these in dapper 09:17 jgrieves TheMuso: and I will probably get some work done on the documentation. I would love your input in the speech part, especially with the console 09:17 jgrieves TheMuso: I would like ot focus on the other sections improvement with screen shots and better details 09:18 linbetwin jgrieves: any word on when is OOo going to support gnome-mag? 09:18 jgrieves linbetwin nope, after getting on Firefox that is my next battle 09:19 linbetwin jgrieves: I've noticed that some Gnome apps work with gnome-mag and some don't. is that something that can be easily fixed? 09:20 jgrieves linbetwin: are they just gtk apps or gnome apps? 09:21 jgrieves linbetwin: before running a gtk app, run 09:21 jgrieves export GTK_MODULES=gail:atk-bridge === matthew5 [n=matthew_@ip70-176-180-97.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting then run the app from the console, if you see "Accessibility Support initialized" 09:21 jgrieves everything the developer has put into the app should be brought ot hte attention fo the AT 09:23 linbetwin for ex. gnomeradio, gedit and gnome-terminal work 09:23 jgrieves yep 09:24 linbetwin in FF's adress bar the focus goes to the center of the address bar, not to the cursor === asw [n=asw@karuna.med.harvard.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting 09:25 jgrieves yeah that may be an FF bug, have you tested with latest CVS? 09:25 kjcole Time for some non-Ubuntu work. Bye... 09:25 linbetwin no, i hope to do that this weekend 09:26 linbetwin bye, kjcole 09:26 jgrieves linbetwin k, keep em updated, and use the wiki 09:26 jgrieves i am trying to follow firefox closely 09:26 jgrieves the sun developer is working hard on 'em now, so we should get him while he's focused 09:26 linbetwin ok 09:27 jgrieves ok lunch for me! see ya 09:28 linbetwin bon appetit! see ya! 09:29 jgrieves hha thanks }}} CategoryAccessibilityTeam