LanguagePackVsSupport
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| * '''Packages affected''': language-pack-*, language-support-*, d-i | * '''Packages affected''': language-pack-*, language-support-*, archive-copier |
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| As of Ubuntu 5.10, language-specific add-ons fall into two categories. language-pack-*, which provides gettext translation data, and language-support-*, which provides "everything else" (including non-gettext translation data). We should consider whether we can make this distinction more meaningful, perhaps limiting language-support-* to non-translation data (e.g., authoring packages for spell checking, thesauruses, etc.) | As of Ubuntu 5.10, language-specific add-ons fall into two categories. language-pack-*, which provides gettext translation data, and language-support-*, which provides "everything else" (including non-gettext translation data). We want to make this distinction more meaningful: have language-pack-* provide all translations, and limit language-support-* to input aids (spell checking, thesauri, input methods, etc.). |
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| In e.g. a German installation without network, the user will get a German desktop by default, but won't have a German translation for Firefox and OpenOffice.org. This is confusing and inconvenient for new users, since it is not immediately clear that the fix for this is to install the "input aids" in the language selector. |
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| == Scope == | * Michael got an Ubuntu CD recently and wants to install a German desktop. He only has a modem, so he does not want to download additional language support (as asked by the installer). * Sebastien wants to learn Catalan and therefore selects "Catalan translations" in the language selector. However, he will still see OpenOffice and Firefox in English. |
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Intended meaning of the packages: * language pack = translations * language support = support packages (spell checkers, etc.) * This is reflected in the current language pack selector (translations and input aids) To implement this, we would need to make the Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice l10n and help files dependencies of `language-pack-*`. However, the combination of OO.o l10n+ffox l10n is in the magnitude of 5 MB; OO.o help is in the magnitude of 10 MB. There is no way we could put help files onto the primary CD for more than one or two languages apart from English. We have pretty good coverage of language-pack-* right now on the install CDs. However, there are no language packs on the live CDs for amd64 and i386 currently, because of space constraints. This will only get worse if language packs grow. This means that we cannot implement the clean solution of adding these packages as language-pack-* dependencies. However, the following options will mitigate the conflict: * The installer question that offers to download "additional language support" should point out that this also includes certain translations, and that the user can always install the additional packages later with the Language Selector. This does not apply to UbuntuExpress, where [[UbuntuExpress/LanguagePacks|language-support-* will always be downloaded, with a facility to cancel]]. * Improve the language selector to handle the non-gettext translation packages in a better way (see below). Language selector changes: * When installing translations for a new language, install the Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice packages along with the gettext language pack(s). * On first start, offer to install missing Firefox/Thunderbird/OpenOffice packages for the default language. |
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| === Data preservation and migration === | The installer merely requires a string change in `archive-copier`. |
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| == Outstanding issues == | The language selector already supports checking for missing packages at startup, so this mechanism can be used for checking for missing packages. |
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| == BoF agenda and discussion == Intended meaning of the packages: * language pack = translations * lanugage support = support packages (spell checkers, etc.) * This is reflected in the current language pack selector (translations and input aids) |
The additional packages that are dependencies of `language-support-*` but ship translations are: |
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| Problems: * Current -support packages contain localisation as well, like firefox language packs. There are also in-between things, like OpenOffice help files. * We have pretty good coverage right now on the install CD * No language packs on the live CDs for amd64 and i386 currently, because of space constraints. This will only get worse if language packs grow. * In a e. g. a German installation, the user will get a German desktop by default, but won't have a German translation for Firefox and OpenOffice.org. |
* `mozilla-firefox-locale-`''lang''`*` * `mozilla-thunderbird-locale-`''lang'' * `openoffice.org2-l10n-`''lang''`*` * `openoffice.org2-help-`''lang''`*` |
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| Openoffice and Firefox are NOT localised by default, because their l10n packages are dependencies of the language-support packages, and not of the language-pack packages. We currently cannot do the latter because of the sizes of the OOo/moz locale packages. | Sometimes package names have a country specific suffix (denoted by a `*`). All of them should be installed to support a particular language properly. |
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| The combination of OO.o l10n+ffox l10n is in the magnitude of 5 MB; OO.o help is in the magnitude of 10 MB; there is no way we could put help files onto the primary CD.- This means that if you don't have network, you're pretty much screwed. | == Notes == |
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| Options: * add a separate l10n CD and put all the translation-related packages on it. -> this is not appealing, and it contradicts our plan to reduce the number of CDs * make hundreds of standard CDs, one for each supported language -> that will make all mirrors run away screaming, and introduces a testing problem * gain more space by using better compression (7zip?) of packages -> won't gain much space -- maybe the firefox/openoffice translation formats can be streamlined/be made more compressible upstream * if the user did not agree to install the support package, automatically start the language selector, which points out that translation support is incomplete, and offers to complete it. However, this breaks with the principle of not asking any questions at the first login. * Similar to the previous option: since having questions after the first login is not desirable, improve the question in the installer: point out that language support includes translations and help files for Firefox and OpenOffice, and also point out how to add this support later. * Select them (dpkg --set-selections-ish), and have them installed on the first upgrade * My local CD vendor sells 99 minute CDs, which can contain a few more packages, but have a higher error rate and are not as well supported on a lot of CD players * Switch to Gnome Office instead of OpenOffice (MUCH smaller localisation files, much faster, etc.) -> see FirstAgainstTheWall BoF * Ship the DVDs in addition to the CDs |
A related spec ([[LanguagePacksCD]]) proposes adding a separate l10n CD and putting all the translation-related packages on it. This is not an ultimate solution since it does not fit into our "one CD for everything" paradigm, and it contradicts our plan to reduce the number of CDs. However, if the CD is generated and offered for download only, this will allow users with low/no bandwidth to get the packages in some way (freedom toaster, get a friend to burn the CD, etc.) ---- CategorySpec |
Launchpad Entry: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/language-pack-vs-support
Created: 2005-10-31 by MartinPitt
Contributors: MartinPitt, MartijnVanDeStreek, GustavoNiemeyer
Packages affected: language-pack-*, language-support-*, archive-copier
Summary
As of Ubuntu 5.10, language-specific add-ons fall into two categories. language-pack-*, which provides gettext translation data, and language-support-*, which provides "everything else" (including non-gettext translation data). We want to make this distinction more meaningful: have language-pack-* provide all translations, and limit language-support-* to input aids (spell checking, thesauri, input methods, etc.).
Rationale
In e.g. a German installation without network, the user will get a German desktop by default, but won't have a German translation for Firefox and OpenOffice.org. This is confusing and inconvenient for new users, since it is not immediately clear that the fix for this is to install the "input aids" in the language selector.
Use cases
- Michael got an Ubuntu CD recently and wants to install a German desktop. He only has a modem, so he does not want to download additional language support (as asked by the installer).
Sebastien wants to learn Catalan and therefore selects "Catalan translations" in the language selector. However, he will still see OpenOffice and Firefox in English.
Design
Intended meaning of the packages:
- language pack = translations
- language support = support packages (spell checkers, etc.)
- This is reflected in the current language pack selector (translations and input aids)
To implement this, we would need to make the Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice l10n and help files dependencies of language-pack-*. However, the combination of OO.o l10n+ffox l10n is in the magnitude of 5 MB; OO.o help is in the magnitude of 10 MB. There is no way we could put help files onto the primary CD for more than one or two languages apart from English.
We have pretty good coverage of language-pack-* right now on the install CDs. However, there are no language packs on the live CDs for amd64 and i386 currently, because of space constraints. This will only get worse if language packs grow.
This means that we cannot implement the clean solution of adding these packages as language-pack-* dependencies. However, the following options will mitigate the conflict:
The installer question that offers to download "additional language support" should point out that this also includes certain translations, and that the user can always install the additional packages later with the Language Selector. This does not apply to UbuntuExpress, where language-support-* will always be downloaded, with a facility to cancel.
- Improve the language selector to handle the non-gettext translation packages in a better way (see below).
Language selector changes:
When installing translations for a new language, install the Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice packages along with the gettext language pack(s).
- On first start, offer to install missing Firefox/Thunderbird/OpenOffice packages for the default language.
Implementation
Code
The installer merely requires a string change in archive-copier.
The language selector already supports checking for missing packages at startup, so this mechanism can be used for checking for missing packages.
The additional packages that are dependencies of language-support-* but ship translations are:
mozilla-firefox-locale-lang*
mozilla-thunderbird-locale-lang
openoffice.org2-l10n-lang*
openoffice.org2-help-lang*
Sometimes package names have a country specific suffix (denoted by a *). All of them should be installed to support a particular language properly.
Notes
A related spec (LanguagePacksCD) proposes adding a separate l10n CD and putting all the translation-related packages on it. This is not an ultimate solution since it does not fit into our "one CD for everything" paradigm, and it contradicts our plan to reduce the number of CDs. However, if the CD is generated and offered for download only, this will allow users with low/no bandwidth to get the packages in some way (freedom toaster, get a friend to burn the CD, etc.)
LanguagePackVsSupport (last edited 2008-08-06 16:19:59 by localhost)