Ubuntu Wiki

   1 <jean7491> hi to all, who is here for this special meeting ?
   2 <jean7491> JanC , mongolito404 ?
   3 <JanC> I'm here
   4 <jean7491> hello JanC
   5 <mongolito404> H
   6 <pvandewyngaerd> hi
   7 <jean7491> hello mongolito404 , pvandewijngaerd
   8 <jean7491> iemand anders voor de meeting ?
   9 <jean7491> perhaps mark will come ...
  10 <jean7491> let's start :  topic today is about adding a webpage containing links to commercial companies and organizations whose activities are related to Ubuntu ?
  11 <JanC> looksaus komt binnen 10 min on-line
  12 <JanC> looksaus = mark vdb
  13 <JanC> ☺
  14 <JanC> (for those who don't understand dutch: mark just called me to say he will come online in 10 minutes)
  15 * |mantas| (~Linux@ip-62-235-178-120.dsl.scarlet.be) a rejoint #ubuntu-be
  16 <jean7491> ok, ok, we wait for him ... : 
  17 <jean7491> and then I propose in a few minutes a first round about the idea : is it or not a good idea ? please your reaction, but no detail, and after that we will follow the agenda as detailled in my email
  18 <mongolito404> I guess Mark's minutes are longer than mine :D
  19 <jean7491> idd
  20 * markvandenborre (~mark@ubuntu/member/markvandenborre) a rejoint #ubuntu-be
  21 <markvandenborre> hi
  22 <mongolito404> hi
  23 <markvandenborre> sorry I'm late, hope JanC announced this properly
  24 <mongolito404> he did
  25 <jean7491> hi, ok from jan
  26 <markvandenborre> any log/summary I can skim through
  27 <jean7491>  I propose a first round about the idea : is it or not a good idea ? please your reaction, but no detail, and after that we will follow the agenda as detailled in my email
  28 <markvandenborre> ?
  29 <mongolito404> markvandenborre: we waited for you, you didn't miss anything
  30 <markvandenborre> oh, great, thx
  31 <jean7491> who start the round ?
  32 <markvandenborre> I think the idea is great
  33 <mongolito404> imho, it's a great idea. We have talked about a "entreprise" page when we build the first site but nothing was never done
  34 <markvandenborre> but we should keep it as _simple_ as possible
  35 <JanC> I also think the idea is great
  36 <jean7491> pieter ?
  37 <markvandenborre> pvandewyngaerd:
  38 <markvandenborre> ?
  39 <jean7491> pvandewyngaerd : what do you think about it ?
  40 <jean7491> i propose to follow the agenda : item 1. who is concerned ? 
  41 <jean7491> commercial companies, organization, non-benefit organizations with activities related to ubuntu ?  more details ?
  42 <jean7491> what do you think ?
  43 <pvandewyngaerd> what do i think about what ?
  44 <jean7491> did you read the mail about this meeting ?
  45 <mongolito404> http://ubuntu-be.3354669.n2.nabble.com/Special-IRC-meeting-on-15-07-at-21-00-hr-tp5288199.html
  46 <markvandenborre> we are a meeting point for _all_ of them, but commercial offerings need their separate exhibition space, I'd say
  47 <markvandenborre> notwithstandig the added value of adding them to a "support points map" thing
  48 <JanC> I think all commercial offers of products & services that are not a one-off event (whether offered by for-profit or non-profit companies/institutions) should go on that page
  49 <markvandenborre> +1
  50 <pvandewyngaerd> +1
  51 <mongolito404> The request initating this discussion as from a commercial entity. I think we should focus on commercial entity. We can deal with it later if non-commercial entities want to be present on ubuntu-be.org
  52 <jean7491> ok
  53 <jean7491> anything else before item 2. conditions ? 
  54 <mongolito404> nop
  55 <JanC> many commercial products & services are offered by a non-profit, so the status of the legal entity shouldn't count IMO
  56 <markvandenborre> center it around the service offered instead of the org, and you're covered
  57 <JanC> think about Rock Werchter, you can't call that a non-commercial event, while legally it's organized by a vzw
  58 <mongolito404> right, so let's focus on commercial products & services
  59 <jean7491> ok, about conditions ? i noted the following ...
  60 <jean7491> - location in Belgium,  ... and abroad based companies with activities in Belgium ? ....
  61 <jean7491> - activity : service related to Ubuntu (hardware, maintenance, promotion, education, ... what else  ?) ...
  62 <jean7491> - ubuntu related activity must be clearly mentioned on website and presentation of the company ...
  63 <jean7491> and --language : at least 1 national language NL/FR/DE and/or EN (?)--language : at least 1 national language NL/FR/DE and/or EN (?)
  64 <jean7491> your opinion and addition ?
  65 <jean7491> about location ?
  66 <JanC> at least one of those 4 languages sounds useful, if we want to check they follow our rules  ;)
  67 <markvandenborre> we can only be expected to check in NL/FR/EN/DE
  68 <markvandenborre> AR/TR/KU are a bit hard
  69 <markvandenborre> :)
  70 <mongolito404> For me the conditions are availability in Belgium and clear and obvious relation to Ubuntu
  71 <JanC> well, I helped solve a conflict in a Hebrew language IRC channel once (long live on-line translation tools)
  72 <mongolito404> language is not a condition but practically we can't validate the two conditions if en/fr/nl are not used
  73 <JanC> I can read de too, and so do some others
  74 <markvandenborre> ok, seems pretty clear to me
  75 <mongolito404> I also like Jan Bongaerts's proposition for direct link to web page presenting the Ubuntu related product or service
  76 <markvandenborre> +1
  77 <markvandenborre> we need a static link for such a page
  78 <JanC> they can make it a redirect on their site too
  79 <JanC> e.g. http://company.be/ubuntu always redirects to the right page
  80 <JanC> but we certainly shouldn't have to change the link all the time
  81 <markvandenborre> perfect
  82 <jean7491> suggestion jan b. is certainly good
  83 <mongolito404> Should we care about their URL schema ? We need/want a permanent URL for a page to the service or product.
  84 <markvandenborre> this is straightforward and easy to check, +1
  85 <jean7491> other conditions ?
  86 <JanC> about the location...
  87 <markvandenborre> I'd say no because that makes things more complicated than necessary
  88 <pvandewyngaerd> a link on their site to our main site ?
  89 <mongolito404> What do you mean ?
  90 <JanC> I can see the point for companies outside Belgium that have a large part of their business in .be, but how to check that
  91 <mongolito404> markvandenborre: ^
  92 <markvandenborre> JanC: if they make the effort
  93 <mongolito404> If it's a product, it has to be shippable to Belgium and this has be be clear on their website
  94 <mongolito404> If it's a service, a Belgian contact address should be provided
  95 <markvandenborre> mongolito404: I meant no more conditions than just easily verifiable web presence for their Ubuntu related commercial offering
  96 <mongolito404> Both are easy the check.
  97 <JanC> as long as it's available in .be then?
  98 <markvandenborre> mongolito404: why not accept foreign service offering available for .be from an outside address?
  99 <mongolito404> The criteria being that if the person checking the information can't find a valid answer easily, then the information is not clear for the average user and the conditions are not met
 100 <markvandenborre> if they make the effort, it's ok
 101 <jean7491> +1k
 102 <markvandenborre> mongolito404: why not give the responsibility to the person that actually checks
 103 <markvandenborre> (to check if the service clearly is available in Belgium)
 104 <mongolito404> ok
 105 <JanC> then we need a "complaints desk" ?
 106 <markvandenborre> err, no?
 107 <markvandenborre> we're providing a service at our discretion
 108 <JanC> ah, you mean, the person of ubuntu-be who adds it
 109 <markvandenborre> yes
 110 <JanC> I thought you meant a visitor
 111 <markvandenborre> if there's any doubt, kick it to the mailing list
 112 <JanC> because we can't really check that (I'm not going to order something just to be sure)
 113 <mongolito404> yes, if there is any doubt, use the mailing list and IRC meeting to solve the issue
 114 <JanC> makes sense, and also list those contact points for visitors with complaints?
 115 <markvandenborre> err, no
 116 <markvandenborre> this is a "no complaints" service
 117 <markvandenborre> _we_ decide
 118 <markvandenborre> if they want to find the list, they can
 119 <JanC> I mean, if somebody follows a link, but the company doesn't offer what they promise(d) (anymore) ?
 120 <markvandenborre> that's why there should be periodic renewals
 121 <JanC> I still want a way to hear about that
 122 <mongolito404> http://ubuntu-be.org/en/contact
 123 <markvandenborre> there's enough means to contact us already
 124 <markvandenborre> I'd say no separate channel until it is proven necessary
 125 <JanC> that's okay, we just have to list it somewhere on that page IMO
 126 <mongolito404> +1 for no separate channel until it is proven necessary
 127 <markvandenborre> renewal terms?
 128 <markvandenborre> 1 year? 2 years?
 129 <JanC> I wasn't talking about a separate channel, just listing where to complain  ☺
 130 <JanC> I'd say no more than 1 year
 131 <jean7491> after conditions, and before offer and procedures a few words about  item 3. update ? periodicity ?  ...
 132 <mongolito404> We can have footer with a sentence inviting visitor to contact us to add information and correct mistake. And "contact us" is a link to the contact us page
 133 <markvandenborre> ok to me
 134 <markvandenborre> 1 year a good term for everybody?
 135 <jean7491> - the agreement for the link should be limited in time 
 136 <jean7491> - aim : to avoid dead links and declining interest for Ubuntu ..
 137 <JanC> mongolito404: that would work, only I would put it on top  ;)
 138 <mongolito404> imho, 1 year is a max
 139 <markvandenborre> ok, perfect
 140 <jean7491> - renewal will be accepted after a simple request for. 
 141 <mongolito404> JanC: Not on top, the important information on the page is the list, it should comes first
 142 <markvandenborre> jean7491: we can also double check existing links
 143 <markvandenborre> proactively, and send them a "renewed" mail
 144 <jean7491> and - reminder mail has to be sent before expiration (by who?) 
 145 <markvandenborre> might take less time
 146 <JanC> mongolito404: I don't think 2 or 3 lines on top of a (hopefully) long list would hurt
 147 <markvandenborre> means we need an email address for these people
 148 <mongolito404> JanC: I do
 149 <markvandenborre> and preferably a phone number
 150 <markvandenborre> works faster
 151 <markvandenborre> for double checking
 152 <markvandenborre> I once did a 3 hour Sunday afternoon support points cleanup
 153 <markvandenborre> by phone together with François Cauwe
 154 <markvandenborre> quite an efficient way to get things done
 155 <jean7491> before procedures , item 4. details of the offer - content of the page “links” ?
 156 <jean7491> our offer should include - place for a logo (which size?) - name of the company – location - link (see remark later) - short description of the activity (max. 3 lines) – language(s) – eventually location on map (if needed ?) ..
 157 <markvandenborre> visible: a link, a logo maybe, or lacking  that, a homepage thumbnail?
 158 <markvandenborre> hidden: email, phone number
 159 <markvandenborre> for renewal/verification
 160 <jean7491> identification includes phone nr and email addres
 161 <markvandenborre> +1
 162 <markvandenborre> hm, sorry, I'll be packing
 163 <jean7491> and as jan said we should stipulate that the link goes directly to the company's page where they advertise Ubuntu and open source product, or hardware withUbuntu or  open source software. It should not go to a home page full of other stuff and you have to struggle to find the open source product.
 164 <JanC> visible on the list: company name, location (town, city, postcode?), short description of what they offer (related to ubuntu), link
 165 <markvandenborre> I'll skim whatever is written here, but I really need to pack; if you need my opinion, just yell my name
 166 <jean7491> ok
 167 <jean7491> thx
 168 <jean7491> Companies in alphabetical order, ...
 169 <jean7491> and mention no responsibility for ubuntu-be about information published on this page
 170 <mongolito404> +1 for the information, +1 for the direct link and +1 for alphabetical order
 171 <mongolito404> +1 for no responsibility
 172 <JanC> +1 about jean7491's last line  ☺
 173 <jean7491> anything else about the offer ?
 174 <markvandenborre> kiss
 175 <markvandenborre> (keep it simple stupid)
 176 <jean7491> if nothing else, item 5. reciprocity : what can we ask ? 
 177 <mongolito404> nothing
 178 <jean7491> mention of a link to ubuntu-be on companies web sites ... 
 179 <markvandenborre> nothing
 180 <mongolito404> we ask nothing, se we are not liable
 181 <markvandenborre> just suggest
 182 <markvandenborre> and hope for the best
 183 <JanC> well, we can suggest 1) a link back & 2) other things
 184 <jean7491> minimum should be a link to ubuntu-be
 185 <mongolito404> The goal is for us to promote Ubuntu/FOSS product/service and the organisation selling them.
 186 <JanC> by "other things", I mean they can give away stuff via our site or ML or whatever  ;)
 187 <JanC> we also only suggest a gift when handing out CDs
 188 <mongolito404> So I say we requires nothing, suggest linking to ubuntu-be.org and suggest taking action in/for the community (sponsoring, etc.)
 189 <JanC> and make it clear we really appreciate if they do what we suggest  ;)
 190 <jean7491> anything else ? on this item ?
 191 <jean7491> item 6. procedure application and agreement ?  
 192 <jean7491> We need a procedure and rules that can be published and used to judge (yes/not) a request and to eventually motivate a refusal.  ...
 193 <jean7491> Who will agreed to the request for inclusion in the “Links” page ? and later check if all is ok, ....
 194 <jean7491> with possibility to cancel the agreement if conditions/rules are not respected ...
 195 <markvandenborre> jean7491: there is no agreement
 196 <markvandenborre> it's a one sided offering on our behalf
 197 <mongolito404> markvandenborre: +1
 198 <mongolito404> request can be done in any suitable way, preferably by the mean of the mailing list.
 199 <mongolito404> change to the page have to be announced on the mailing list too
 200 <jean7491> agreement = our decision to include the link
 201 <markvandenborre> we can also actively collect companies
 202 <markvandenborre> if we wish to
 203 <JanC> markvandenborre: we can all do that on a personal basis
 204 <jean7491> here an example of application rules in 4 points ...
 205 <JanC> and ask others to help
 206 <jean7491> 1. Send an application to ??? Ubuntu-be, including your identification, localisation,  service/activity related tu Ubuntu and demonstrate your engagement towards Ubuntu promotion. ...
 207 <jean7491> 2. When your application is accepted, you will be informed and you will be asked for information to be published (name and identification, localisation, link to your website, short description of the activity (max. 3 lines), language(s). ...
 208 <jean7491> 3. When approved, your contribution will be published on the webpage Links of Ubuntu-be for an initial period of 12 months. ...
 209 <jean7491> 4. Yearly, renewal of your engagement towards Ubuntu will have to be sent to ??? Ubuntu-be for extension of the publication period for another 12 months. 
 210 <mongolito404> Application can be send to any ubuntu-be member. If the member has the ability/permission to edit the page, he/she can do it after cheking the fact. Otherwise, I can forward the request to the ML
 211 <JanC> I think information in 2. should be given in 1. (how to decide otherwise?)
 212 <markvandenborre> one clear channel to get it to us
 213 <jean7491> application should be address to an email address and not mailing list
 214 <markvandenborre> and one clear procedure
 215 <jean7491> point 2 is about what will be published , the application point 1 can be more complete
 216 <JanC> jean7491: so point 2 should be part of point 1 already anyway?
 217 <JanC> of course thinsg can be changed over discussions
 218 <jean7491> as first step we should have an email addres where application can be sent to, then a few people looking the mail and deciding about ubuntu-be position ...
 219 <jean7491> candidats need 1 point of contact and not a mailing list 
 220 <markvandenborre> +1
 221 <JanC> 1 PoC is also a SPoF
 222 <jean7491> point of contact should be 1 email addres and we can internally discuss ...
 223 <jean7491> 1 PoC is also a SPoF ? what do you mean ?
 224 <mongolito404> single point of failure
 225 <mongolito404> meaning that if the PoC fails, the whole system fail
 226 <JanC> mongolito404: AFAIK we can't really run our own (receiving) mailserver on the new VPS, right?
 227 <mongolito404> I think we can
 228 <jean7491> the poc i mean is 1 email addres, not 1 name
 229 <markvandenborre> +1
 230 <markvandenborre> easiest scenario might be gafyd
 231 <mongolito404> gafyd ?
 232 <markvandenborre> but I don't know if that is acceptable from a FOSS point of view
 233 <JanC> we could use a ticket system like rt or OTRS...
 234 <markvandenborre> google apps for your domain
 235 <JanC> I have no Google account...   :P
 236 <jean7491> 1 emailaddres = contact.ubuntu-be@uptoyoutochoosewhere.xxx ...
 237 <jean7491> with access to people active in ubuntu-be
 238 <JanC> jean7491: you already registered an .xxx domain before anybody else could?  :P
 239 <JanC> (just joking)
 240 <jean7491> ha ha ! read   .xyz
 241 <JanC> jean7491: we need more than 1 address, we don't want 3 people to answer 3 different things
 242 <JanC> that's what 'rt' or 'otrs' can help with
 243 <JanC> or other similar systems
 244 <mongolito404> Actually, we can use Launchpad
 245 <jean7491> before to answer, just look the sent items and contact other players
 246 <JanC> mongolito404: what part of LP do you mean?
 247 <markvandenborre> launchpad +1
 248 <mongolito404> Bugs
 249 <markvandenborre> only thing would be private information
 250 <markvandenborre> is there any private info to be processed?
 251 <JanC> mongolito404: isn't that a bit too technical for some companies?
 252 <mongolito404> private ?which part of the process should be private ?
 253 <markvandenborre> mongolito404: don't think so
 254 <mongolito404> A company contact a member of Ubuntu-be, the member open a bug
 255 <mongolito404> or the company open the bug itself
 256 <mongolito404> I really rhink we shoud learn to use LP bugs to track task and request
 257 <mongolito404> We should do these thing in the open
 258 <mongolito404> There is no need for secrecy
 259 <JanC> well, I can see some private chat might be useful sometimes (e.g. referring to clients who don't want to be in public)
 260 <mongolito404> If private/sensible information should be provided, it can be done out of band by mail
 261 <JanC> but it could just be kept out of LP
 262 <JanC> exactly
 263 <jean7491> as already said kiss : emailaddres = contact.ubuntu-be@gmail.com or something else than gmail  
 264 <mongolito404> So a request is done though a bug on LP, public/normal conversation and update on processing are done through comment
 265 <mongolito404> private conversation are done privately using whatever medium is suitable (use snail mail if you want)
 266 <jean7491> is it so difficult to start 1 simple email addres for companies and people outside ubuntu-be ??
 267 <jean7491> as contact for companies and people outside u-be
 268 <JanC> well, currently the mailserver on ubuntu-be.org isn't reachable from the internet (I assumed it was an FSFE hosting restriction)
 269 <JanC> otherwise we could have whatever@ubuntu-be.org
 270 <mongolito404> JanC: it is, but maybe the port can be opened if needed
 271 * guydup (~guydup@d51530769.static.telenet.be) a rejoint #ubuntu-be
 272 <JanC> mongolito404: it would need that we get a unique IP address (like I have on my own VPS) or soem sort of mail forwarding service from FSFE
 273 <jean7491> can you look for a solution for an email addres  ? and we continue with last item implementation ?
 274 <mongolito404> yes, I think a solution for the email address is psossible
 275 <mongolito404> This is the second need for custom @ubuntu-be.org (see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-belgium/+bug/399194)
 276 <jean7491> step 1. redaction of the rules, inclusive the renewal procedure, for example in the wiki, based on what we discussed  today ...
 277 <jean7491> is someone volunteer to write it ?
 278 <JanC> mongolito404: I guess we need to talk to some FSFE admins one of these days...  ;)
 279 * live-linux est parti (Remote host closed the connection)
 280 <jean7491> volunteer to write the rules or to contribute to the work ?
 281 <jean7491> i can start the work, but need more contribution from ... you !
 282 * guydup est parti (Quit: Java user signed off)
 283 <mongolito404> I can proof-read
 284 <jean7491> when rules and procedures are ok, step 2. publication of the information through the mailing list and  preparation of the website page 
 285 <JanC> we can all proof-read & discuss when it gets send to the ML
 286 <mongolito404> I will take care of the webste page
 287 <JanC> sent as a draft
 288 <jean7491> i'd like to prepare the draft with your comments before going to the ml ...
 289 <jean7491> because there are things like who will take part to the decision that we have to decide out of the ml
 290 <jean7491> then step 3. contact with the companies, first answer to Silent computers, and then Linux-Service, Alupcs, ..., and others, firstly  via mailing list 
 291 <jean7491> and personal contacts
 292 <jean7491> last 4. Control later is needed , for example  still interest for and engagement to Ubuntu ?
 293 <mongolito404> Announce on the mailing will probably attract some suggstions
 294 <mongolito404> for 3.
 295 <mongolito404> for control,  don't think we need a defined control procedure. It should be clear that if at anytime, the conditions are not meet, the link can be removed without notice to avoid unecessary work on our side (contact, etc.)
 296 <mongolito404> But the polite thing to do is to send a notice to the company.
 297 <jean7491> +1 , 
 298 <mongolito404> But no "grace period" during which the company is given time to reply and/or fix the issue.
 299 <mongolito404> Because it means to much work for us.
 300 <mongolito404> (any work is too much, we all want thing without effort)
 301 <jean7491> ok,     before to conclude : 2 unsolved questions ....
 302 <jean7491> 1. the email addres : i suppose not to complicate to solve the problem ...
 303 <jean7491> 2. who decide ? ...
 304 <mongolito404> who decide what ?
 305 <markvandenborre> sorry, off to bed
 306 <markvandenborre> early flight tomorrow
 307 * markvandenborre (~mark@ubuntu/member/markvandenborre) a quitté #ubuntu-be ("Leaving.")
 308 <jean7491> de-facto we are already 4 concerned in an unformal "decision-group" to accept the applications  
 309 <mongolito404> you mean who decide to accept an application ? U suggest whoever is available and willing to take care of the application takes the responsability
 310 <mongolito404> If an acceptation is doubtful, it can be discussed on the ML or during an IRC meeting
 311 <mongolito404> If an accepted application is challenged, it should also be discussed on the ML or during IRC meeting
 312 <jean7491> rather in an irc meeting between concerned people
 313 <mongolito404> Whatever medium suits the concerned people
 314 <mongolito404> One thing should be clear: application, acceptation of application and challenging an accepted application is a concern for ubuntu-be.
 315 <jean7491> i mean concerned people = at least member of the loco team, and preferabily active in ubuntu-be
 316 <mongolito404> If the initiating party doesn't publish it on the ML, any participating party can publish about it
 317 <jean7491> ?
 318 <mongolito404> I think only active member of the LoCo will participate to the discussion
 319 <JanC> seems like we might get mail solved
 320 <jean7491>  initiating party, ...participating party ... ?
 321 <mongolito404> people
 322 <mongolito404> initiating party => the peopel starting the discussion, participating party => people participating to the discussion
 323 <mongolito404> ubuntu-be is a do-it-o-cracy, people who do things decide
 324 <mongolito404> in order to take part in the decision process, you just have to join it
 325 <pvandewyngaerd> almost spells like idiot-crazy
 326 <mongolito404> :D
 327 <mongolito404> Yeah, I'm a crazy idiot
 328 <jean7491> ok, i understand that we can discuss it in irc, with announcement in the ml 
 329 <mongolito404> but ?
 330 <jean7491> i propose we stop for today, i'll write a report and start with rules and procedures
 331 <jean7491> if necessary we 'll have another meeting later 
 332 * ttl- (~ttl@d5153A420.access.telenet.be) a rejoint #ubuntu-be
 333 <jean7491> if no comment, thanks for your participation !
 334 <mongolito404> jean7491: Thanks to you for leading this meeting and the whole stuff
 335 <JanC> I think that's a good idea (been a long day for me ;) )
 336 <mongolito404> good night all